July 10, 2014 at 2:14 pm #18402
Malgus, All great examples but it is not a civil war. In a civil war they will need all the military to control the other side. I do not see all the military killing there own families and friends, not happening. This is why O is looking at the UN.
At the beginning the young will go along but many will turn when they see the killings of Americans. It will be a 50/50 just like the vote, we are a divided nation.
The small examples are not a civil war. The government would need total control and that has not happen even in communist countries that have total control over there people like China. There military doesn’t have ammo given to the troops, only a select group and even that select group only gets the ammo for there weapons in they event and after the even they take the ammo back. They count every single bullet.
I know this for a fact, I know some Cubans that went to Angola and every time they were given ammo to shoot at the end they were searched to get the ammo back to control them. Many would run away for days, some ended dead and some ended in ships that they didn’t even know were the ship was going.
So if Cuba with the communist control and over 53 years there still having problems controlling there people I can’t see the total military control here. There will be many that will turn on there orders.
The Communist have not been able to control the minds of the people.July 10, 2014 at 3:07 pm #18404
Shooting – No Shooting, Civil War – No Civil War
Not a thing I can do about the above. I CAN make sure my group and myself are ready to rock and roll!
RobinJuly 10, 2014 at 3:45 pm #18405
As for the military following orders–and the populace going along–remember Germany in Hitler’s time. They ignored the screams of the Jews in the boxcars, being told they were “political criminals”, “enemies of the state” etc. In hard times, most people just go along with the leadership either out of ignorance, fear, or apathy. Just wanting to get their next ration of food and another day of life (such as it may be.) Not wanting to disrupt the illusion that all is normal–or will return to normalcy soon.
I have very little hope that many Americans will rise to the call the way the Thinkers did back in 1776. No one knows how to think analytically any more. Just passive gawkers at the media, believing it to be the facts. Yes, I’m discouraged and cynical. How did he get back in for a 2nd term? That alone proves how far we have fallen from our foundations.July 10, 2014 at 3:50 pm #18406
I believe some troops WILL turn on the feds, but not as many as some think. There won’t be a lot. Katrina was a great example, only ONE unit refused to confiscate weapons.July 10, 2014 at 4:26 pm #18407
Germany is a problem to compare. The Jews controlled all the Universities, banking, and the large companies so the Germans had a problem with that and many didn’t care about the Jews. I see some of that happening here with the Jews.
Katrina was a problem but they didn’t have to kill, in an all out civil war were they try to take everyone’s weapons I see a problem with that. To many in the military believe in owning guns as a personal thing and believe it is a right. I have not meet a military guy that doesn’t believe in the 2nd Amendment. I know there is some buy I have not talked to any.
New Orleans is not the best example. I like to see what will happen in Texas if they tried to take everyone’s weapon.
We have no example of the military going after everyone’s weapon and killing the people. Once that happens then we will see how many will take the killing of there own people. Not only that but when they see how many will be shooting back at them and the war that it will start I believe they will turn.July 10, 2014 at 6:21 pm #18426
I am well aware what constitutes a civil war. If you re-read my post, nowhere did I say that the situation in New Orleans was a civil war. Perhaps you misunderstood my point, or were hearing what you wanted to hear…
The question was simple – ‘what will the troops do?’. I told you all what they would do, and I don’t think I’m wrong. And I vehemently disagree that the situation in New Orleans was a “small example”. Anyone with their wits about them who wants to know what active duty, reserve and NG troops will do, need only look to what they have done in the past.
I’m speaking from experience. I’ve seen it happen, right in front of me. They won’t be “killing their families and friends” because
1) The higher ups are very aware that NG units are comprised of people from the community and there will be blowback from ordering them to do heinous things.
2) They will move different NG, reserve or active duty units into the area that have no familial ties, loyalty or friends there to solve that problem.
3) FNG’s will say “how high” when you say “frog”… they will obey orders, period. They don’t know enough to make a stand. The older soldiers and NCO’s do, if they’ve got an ounce of brains…
4) Of those who do know better, I would like to think that all of them would make a stand. But, that’s a pipe dream. Very few will.
This –> “I have not meet a military guy that doesn’t believe in the 2nd Amendment.”
It’s not about believing in the IIA. I might have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating here –
ALL soldiers and military folks take an oath to support and defend the Constitution. But very, very few can even tell you what the Bill of Rights is, how many Amendments to the Constitution there are or even what any of the amendments actually say (and saying “right to free speech” isn’t an answer…). How can you support and defend something if you don’t even know what it is? Troops are told they have the duty to disobey illegal, immoral or unconstitutional orders – but if they don’t know the law, don’t have a decent moral compass and don’t have any idea what the hell the Constitution says, then how can they legally disobey an order? THAT’S the point. Even if they’re right in disobeying an illegal order, they will still be Court Martialed. Their career will effectively be OVER. And they know it. It takes tremendous intestinal fortitude to make a stand and say “I am not going to follow that order because it is illegal”. And, contrary to what the flag-waivers say, not all service-members are moral, ethical people. Putting on a uniform does not bestow morality or ethics or knowledge of the law or the Constitution… there’s PLENTY of dirtbags in uniform…
If it boils down to it – and I think it will – I would say that less than 25% of troops would refuse an order to fire on civilians. Perhaps as low as 10%. The rest will go along because they either don’t know any better, or they do know better, but they do not have the courage of their convictions…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1July 10, 2014 at 6:27 pm #18429
I think people are too concerned with the people vs the government aspect of a civil war. It seems this incident is more a indicator of a coming war between different racial groups in an area.
The government is not some totally powerful monolith. If the KGB and Soviet Army could not keep the USSR together (and those guys were a lot more hardcore than anything we have in America), then the FBI, DHS and US Army stand no chance.July 10, 2014 at 7:15 pm #18432
I agree with Malgus in that most servicemen AND esp the general public have no clue as to the Constitution or our history. No knowledge of our fundamental precepts, the ones that built this unique country. Gone with the wind…lost in virtual reality and I-phone addiction. And yes, the troops brought in will have no ties to the community.
As to the govt not being a monolith–it is in the thinking of some people who have been generationally dependent upon it. They have no experience in analytical thinking. More later….July 10, 2014 at 7:47 pm #18435
Malgus, The young guys have not killed any civilians in a civil war that I know of. They may obey til they see or hear about family memers being killed or taken then they will not obey and turn. A hurricane is not at all what will happen in a civil unrest were the people will shoot back and many will be killed and many in the military will thing what the hell am I doing killing civilians.
I am sorry but that will not happen and O knows it. That is the big reason he is looking at the UN for help. The young military have fathers and mothers that are x military and have been told all there lifes about the constitution.
Believe me I understand you 100% it is that I do not see your point. From 40 to 50% will not do it and will turn. They can’t say that right now and will say whatever the top brass want to hear but I know many here and they have told me no way they would do that if ordered and would turn on them.
It is the reason over 200 top brass have been fired by O and the ones that are there now many have learned that you just have to agree to stay in but will turn when the time is right.
Remember they will go along with the orders till they start seeing all the civilians killed and then they realize what they have done and turn. Many will kill there own people at first but they will turn. O needs troops from other countries to do the job. If not he will not have a chance.
Ask some young military guys the question and you will see that there is a problem that O has.
This is why O is also building up Homeland Security because they have cleared it up with left wing brass and preparing it to go against any military group that does turn which he knows he has a problem with.
But even if you where right 10% of the military with 5 to 10 million civilians armed will be hell for even the UN troops to win.July 10, 2014 at 8:09 pm #18436
A hurricane is not at all what will happen in a civil unrest were the people will shoot back and many will be killed and many in the military will thing what the hell am I doing killing civilians.-
Just what do you think was going on in New Orleans after Katrina hit? People standing around, patiently waiting for the government to ride to the rescue? Whites formed militias to defend their neighborhoods – most notably Algiers Point. I was a damn far sight worse than “civil unrest”… by the way, I hate that phrase. It’s a riot. It’s looting. It’s murder. Call it what it is. The denizens of New Orleans rampaged in the absence of any authority and whites tribed up for common defense.
And you are perhaps unaware that there were those in New Orleans who fired on military rescue helicopters sent from the Marine assault ship stationed off the coast? They were shot at, until the Captain recalled all helicopters and refused to send them back out.
Then came the Blackwater mercs and troops. Some pretty nasty stories about gunfights between the mercs and the blacks, if you care to look them up…
Personally, I think you are fooling yourself into thinking that a full half won’t follow orders… but, don’t let me tell you any different. You say that there are those just telling O what he wants to hear, yet ignore the very real possibility that they are telling YOU what you want to hear…
You talk to them.
I lived amongst them, served with them, led them. I was one of them, for many years… 13 years to be precise. I put little faith in “half” of them refusing when it really matters…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1July 10, 2014 at 9:12 pm #18441
Malgus, I do agree with you on the young going along with the orders but we will see what happens when there own family members get shot of killed.
In the U. S. we have people from all over the world so things will not be the same as what has happen in other countries. I still think that many more will turn and that is the reason why we hear that the UN is preparing to help O. Also the reason O has fired so many in the top brass and the reason for Homeland Security. Have you read that every agency of the government is buying ammo but not much news on the military buying ammo. All of these fact are pointing that there is still a problem for O with the military.
We will see Malgus, I truly hope you are not right on this one. We need some to turn to win. It looks like not many on the forum think like I do on this subject so if you guys are right then the U. S. may go down. I am not going anywhere so I will go down with it.
I still believe in all of us. Malgus & 74 never stop hitting me hard on the forum, this is the only way to see what all sides are thinking. This is what America is about, the freedom to disagree!July 10, 2014 at 9:42 pm #18443
Bro, you and I are in agreement on a lot of stuff… but where would the fun be if we just sat around agreeing with each other all the time?
Trust me. I watched O fire those higher-ups with a great deal of interest. He’s got Yes-men in charge now. It was a political purge, probably orchestrated by Jarrett…
The ammo situation, I have also been watching with great interest. The Praetorians have enough ammo to fight a war the size of the Iraqi theater at it’s highest level for something like 20 years… and it’s not mil-spec ammo. It’s hollowpoint ammo in non-standard calibers… makes you wonder why. Then there’s the program where they’re handing out ‘free’ armored vehicles and other military grade toys… just pre-positioning assets, as far as I’m concerned…
I’m hoping and praying I’m wrong about a whole lot of stuff…. but, I’m not gonna fool myself either…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1July 10, 2014 at 10:24 pm #18445
Malgus So what do you think that the higher ups that got fired are going to do? I have read that since President Roosevelt the military had developed plans for what a President O is doing. Have you read anything about that? A force that not many know about just in case there was a communist take over.July 10, 2014 at 10:41 pm #18447
Hitting hard? Hey I’m a cream puff!July 10, 2014 at 10:57 pm #18451
74 & Malgus, I am feeling good today, letting it all out. It is getting interesting with all the opinions. Also it has been raining all day today in Miami.
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