Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 51 total)
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  • #46900
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Here is another point , once the feds have the area contained …………………game over , whats the hurry ? The Romans were masters of containment , as were medieval people ……..once done you simply wait , you hold all the cards . Why push the issue if there isnt something sinister going on within their ranks . FBI credibility is absolute zero . Another way is to do nothing ………or passive isolation , what this does is make the movement loose steam and support , which it naturally would , people would be forced to go home , militia cant stay forever and would leave ………….either way , the occupiers loose ……………so whats the hurry . That has to be asked if they considered their motives just . Containment could have been done by the Sheriffs dept and not the feds .

    Because it’s ‘Federal’ land, the local SO isn’t the LE agency in charge.
    Same as Indian Reservations, the BIA has to hand certain things over to the FBI, depending on the crime.

    The local SO just wanted these guys to go home, said so a while back.
    Looks like the Oregon State Patrol was involved with the roadblock though, possibly the shooting.

    The group had already been working on/talking about getting out, talks had been in process.

    The warrant was realistically a means to keep the leaders away from the rest of the group so they become even more disillusioned and would just leave.
    Hence the ‘traffic stop’ at a roadblock.

    They had been cut off for a while, little fanfare, little notice outside that one ‘blogger’ who embedded with the group.

    My biggest problem isn’t the lack of info from the FBI, been there, done that, nothing gets out until the investigation is complete, tainting evidence and witnesses is an issue.
    But it’s the three plus different ‘eyewitness’ accounts from various sources.
    The stories don’t match, from the daughter, the Bundy wife, the people who drove by, etc.

    “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot” all over again.

    Here’s a scary thought, someone at the FBI was actually thinking after the shooting, they sat back and reviewed video (hopefully there is some) and decided to wait until the investigation is over to release it. Both for due process (something forgotten nowadays) and to allow the “witnesses” to lie to the press to discredit themselves when the video and evidence is released.

    We are waiting for Paul Harvey, and the “Rest of the Story” on this one.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Whirlibird Whirlibird.
    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Whirlibird Whirlibird.
    #46903
    Profile photo of matt76
    matt76
    Survivalist
    member8

    Sled,
    In a nutshell, yes, this is about the BLM grabbing land and extorting local ranchers for its use. Here is a pretty good explanation.

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/

    #46904
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Here’s a look at some of the different stories and sources.

    https://readfomag.com/2016/01/malheur-sitrep-0400l-28-jan-16/

    http://www.rawstory.com/2016/01/eyewitnesses-knock-down-conspiracy-theories-about-lavoy-finicum-dying-with-his-hands-up/

    (Was forwarded to me)

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Whirlibird Whirlibird.
    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Whirlibird Whirlibird.
    #46908
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous
    Survivalist

    Just a bit of correction on the history. The rather long, and apparently well researched history under the Breitbart banner is good material (I referenced/linked it earlier myself), does need a bit more updating. While the following source is not exactly one I’d go to with great confidence, this story does seem to get it fairly right on the history that existed even before Teddy Roosevelt declared the land an Indian Reservation in 1908 – without any Indians. There’s a huge story behind that, like so many other Indian stories: treaties made, boundaries drawn, encroaching European-extract settlers want the land as they move westward, so the Indians get “moved” once again (forced marches, ambushes, etc.). There are other sources, but you’d have to piece them together, and this one (despite the source) seems pretty thorough and accurate from what I’ve gotten from other sources.

    http://www.democracynow.org/2016/1/5/these_arent_the_first_armed_whites

    The bottom line is that the land is just one more example of land “given” to Indian tribes, and once they’re settled, they’re booted off their new land illegally. Researching the Republic of Lakotah is an interesting study for anyone interested in that process. Russell Means fought (hard!) for that to come to pass, right up until his death. So in my opinion, FWIW (all of an inflated 2¢ using non-copper pennies), the Bundy Brothers never got their “cause” right in the first place, and thoroughly “dissed” the Paiutes big time when challenged on who should “own” the land if the feddies don’t.

    #46917
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    So it appears F almost hit an officer with his truck, then made a furtive movement for a concealed 9mm handgun inside his coat after he got out.

    Self fulfilling prophecy.

    #46920
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Obviously F created his own death. I can’t even imagine how he thought he was going to get away. I do think the FBI should not have given him clear space in front of him. Intentionally or not they gave him the option to run. The road block should have rolled up on him giving him no where to go. Ultimately he might have done the same thing, there’s no way to know.

    #46924
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    The traffic stop was the least dangerous for all involved, no crossfire possibility, no innocents, the location can be “controlled” within reason.

    The roadblock was set up that far ahead, either earlier or far enough ahead to give room for the traffic stop with a safety buffer for other traffic or in case the vehicle didn’t stop. Fairly standard.

    You will note how long it took the chase vehicles to enter the scene, they were waiting for the fight to be over to enter safely, also so the roadblock personnel didn’t think it was more of the militia members coming in.

    Totality of the facts point toward suicide by cop, self martyrdom.

    He refused legal orders, attempted to elude, recklessly endangered those in the truck, refused to comply again after the truck stopped, and then made a movement as if he were going for a gun, called a furtive movement.

    All this after publicly announcing he wasn’t going to jail.

    You will be hard pressed to find a cop who wouldn’t shoot under those circumstances.

    We won’t even speculate on the possibility of the rumored explosives coming into play.

    End result? He killed himself, someone else just has to live with pulling the trigger he was to cowardly to do himself.

    #46926
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous
    Survivalist

    It appears very unlikely that the girl’s recorded account of the event was accurate in many respects. Obviously, Finicum was not standing with his hands above his head when he was shot. And obviously all the left side windows were not blown out. The long back side window was clearly intact, based on many passes of the helicopter that showed varying reflections off the glass. The back passenger door window did appear to be gone, though it could have been rolled down I suppose. It was hard to tell about the driver’s window. But the windshield also appeared intact. The front passenger window appeared to go out very early in the confrontation, possibly for or from one of the grenades. IF they all stuck their hands out the windows to show they were unarmed, that was never evident in the video.

    As for the agent that Finicum almost hit, that was CLEARLY not Finicum’s intent. That man was not there a second before – he jumped out in front of the LE vehicle when he saw Finicum trying to go around him. Stop the video and go a click at a time, and it’s clear that he was not just standing to the left of the LE vehicle in the path of Finicum’s vehicle, so I don’t accept that that particular item can be pinned on Finicum. He was already commited, both in speed and direction, to going around the LE vehicle, and the agent suddenly jumped out in his path. If Finicum was alive, I’d have a very strong argument with any charge related to trying to strike that agent, any any first year attorney fresh out of law school could have shown that video and had that charge thrown out.

    Going for the gun? Probably. Even the FBI says it was IN his pocket, so was he going for it to use it, or to bring it out and raise it up over his head (stupid move, but I suppose possible in the excitement of the moment), or was he doing a suicide by cop? We’ll never know for sure. But by bringing his hands down two different times to fumble around with his jacket, pockets, or whatever, was probably cause enough with these guys known to be armed (and likely armed right there at the moment), and Finicum already on record saying he’d die before he’d go to jail. Thus, I have little to no problem with the apparent move to take him down.

    As for “120” shots hitting their vehicle, it’s pretty hard to know from the helicopter video, but I’m not buying the audio recording. That she may have actually been the girl in the vehicle I could believe possibly, but it’s also likely that her memory and perceptions were highly clouded based on her age, lack of experience in such situations, and the extreme adrenaline. She may have even ducked down or turned her head and never saw Finicum lower his hands, I suppose, so she assumed they were up when he was shot (clearly not the case). And that he even had his hands up after he was shot – yes, the video seems to show that he extended them back up over his head, probably on command, because LE didn’t know whether he’d go for whatever was in his pocket again, having no way to know how badly he was injured.

    I’d still like to see photos of the vehicle just to confirm the perceptions from imprecise video from the air, but I’m not inclined to believe that vehicle looked like Bonnie and Clyde’s vehicle, despite what the audio account sounded like.

    So – my tentative final take on it: idiots. They screwed up the view people have of “conservatives” around the country, they took on a cause that wasn’t their business the moment both the sheriff and the Hammond family (including the father and son going to prison) asked them to leave. And they didn’t even have the “cause” correct – they used it to fit their own long-standing agenda. Thus, any claim Cliven Bundy had from last year, and particularly any claim the Hammonds have with regard to their ranch and the father and son’s freedom, will be lost to the dust bins of history, because the Brothers Bundy and their merry militia band completely overshadowed what may be some very legitimate issues.

    Beyond sad. LaVoy Finicum seems to have clearly engineered his own death. Congratulations, LaVoy. You left your family without an apparently beloved member, and for what?

    #46933
    Profile photo of matt76
    matt76
    Survivalist
    member8

    Whirli, GS,
    I have to agree with you both. I can’t blame the officers for firing. I have watched the video several times. My first impression was yes he went for his gun. Without audio it will be impossible to know for sure what happened. I will say that upon my second viewing of the video the question did come up as to whether it was possible LaVoy could have been trying to open his jacket to show he wasn’t armed(9 mil. could have been planted later). Just playing devils advocate here. Either way I believe the officer was justified that fired the first shot. My first impression was that he was going for a gun so I can assume the officer thought so too. You make a move like that you are going to get shot bottom line. As for the girls testimony I think she may have just freaked out. As GS stated her lack of experience could have blinded her to what was actually happening. It was reported and you can see some of it in the video that flash bangs, pepper spray, OC and rubberized bullets were used to subdue the others in the truck. I’m sure it sounded like the truck was being cut to shreds. Such a sad situation that buried the true issues.

    #46943
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Whirly,
    I’m not making any argument concerning the justifiability of the shoot. Only that the FBI may have prevented the shooting. Keeping the road block out of the line of fire is understandable, but in the end the chase car is right there.

    “You will note how long it took the chase vehicles to enter the scene, they were waiting for the fight to be over to enter safely”

    In fact they don’t wait. The chase car is about 7 seconds behind the perps, and the chase car is sitting there when F gets out of his car. They went from a some what controlled situation to a uncontrolled much more dangerous situation. As GS points out one officer jumps in front of the moving Suburban and is injured, lucky to be alive. No my friend this was mishandled.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 10 months ago by Profile photo of 74 74.
    #46958
    Profile photo of matt76
    matt76
    Survivalist
    member8

    This may have just taken a very bad turn. Pacific Patriot Network, who was trying to mediate the negotiations between the FBI and the protesters has launched a call to action.

    http://www.pacificpatriotsnetwork.com

    #46959
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    This comes as no surprise. After all the FBI set up a road block and stopped a car full of people because they took over the toilets at a National Park. Came out of the chase cars with guns drawn ready to shoot the toilet stallers. Oh that’s not it? It’s because of their political views you say. Because only certain types of protest are allowed? I can see that because parts of two cities were burned down and no one was shot. But those people were protesting for the right reason I guess.

    #46961
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    Matt76 , they made a call to arms before this happened . Word travels fast on patriot networks . They had few takers respond to the call . Why ? because they screwed up big time by taking over a building , yes I understand why they thought they should do that , but it changed the entire dynamic of principle , from the view of the outside . It went from a defense / protection ideology , which almost everybody in that community can understand and feel is correct , to an offensive action , that does change things in a lot of people’s minds . I feel that this call to action will have just as few takers right now . Its a far different situation than the Bundy Ranch in Nevada . The ones that did respond , didnt stay long when the going got tough . Italians in WW2 come to mind . Cant really blame them either , because the actions were not completely in the right . The Bundy Ranch in Nevada was a defensive / protective measure , and it continued to grow in strength of numbers because of that .

    74 , I agree with your interpretation .

    #46967
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous
    Survivalist

    But unfortunately, this new call for action is dated 29 January 2016 (Friday). Just what we don’t need – another confrontation. COULD the FBI/State Police have handled it better? I don’t know, I wasn’t there. We can do after-action analysis all over the place, and even those with far more knowledge than most of us here (there are at least some exceptions with solid personal knowledge, training, and experience in such things) will almost always come up with what could have been done better, to enhance training for “next time.” I saw that time after time with aircraft incidents and accidents. No one’s perfect. But the facts also include the very poor decisions made by the Bundys, Finicum, and others, in how they handled this from their side. It’s not like they went into this blindly, with no idea that it could end in a shoot-out and people dying.

    So this is NOT the time for some “patriots network” (I don’t care how large or small, known or unknown they are) to be calling for more congregation into an area where tensions are already high, and even the locals in large measure don’t want any more outsiders. Whatever happened to self-rule? Tensions are just too high, and this isn’t the time. So matt76’s assessment that, “This may have just taken a very bad turn,” would seem to be accurate. I sincerely hope not. The nation doesn’t care! (Partly because they know virtually nothing about it, and no one has explained it to them in a way that they feel a need to care.) What will more deaths get them, except more “Militia crazies get into 2nd gun battle with FBI” headlines? I don’t see anything good coming out of this new “call for action.” They CLEARLY have no concept about picking their battles in a way that will enhance their position.

    #46970
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    74, yes it makes a difference who is protesting. As the Mayor of Baltimore said, they needed to give those who wanted to destroy space to do so. Burning Baltimore is far different that occupying a small essentially unused federal facility in the middle of a desert. One will have the police stand down, the other will draw a large federal response.

    Tolik is right that they changed the perception in how they went about it. I don’t know anyone in the so called patriot networks but from afar it seems those folks really need to smarten up when it comes to media management, and also start learning how to use the courts to make change. The far left certainly has mastered both.

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