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“I changed the time frame and circumstances to make the choices easier to understand. If collapse is imminent does 10 days or 30 days make a difference? Would it be the buyers fault if the credit card companies fail before they can collect?”
74, I have stated before I do not have a crystal ball or the ear of God. I don’t know what the future will bring… Though it is true I have a very good chance of predicting 10-30 days in the future during normal times… BUT during a black swan event… forget-it!
74, during a black swan event or a SHFT event, I will live as much as I can as I do today. Today, I protect and provide for my family. After SHFT I will protect and provide for my family as well as I am able. Today, I avoid being a plunder or murder. After SHFT I will avoid being a plunder or murder, even if that means I die or my family dies. That is my choice. Your choice may be different.
Go at it. Be the last man standing… You will have the world all to yourself filled with the demons of your dead.
“My name is Ozymandias, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!”Welcome, Verde. I hope you find what your looking for.
Furthemore, Dmitry Orlov in the book Five Stages of Collapse, talks about collapse not as a all-or-nothing event but stages. I don’t agree with a number of aspects of his book and he has some serious logical failing that invalid his whole premise. Nevertheless, we can still learn some valuable lessons from his stages of collapse.
“Stage 1: Financial collapse. Faith in “business as usual” is lost. The future is no longer assumed resemble the past in any way that allows risk to be assessed and financial assets to be guaranteed. Financial institutions become insolvent; savings are wiped out, and access to capital is lost.
Stage 2: Commercial collapse. Faith that “the market shall provide” is lost. Money is devalued and/or becomes scarce, commodities are hoarded, import and retail chains break down, and widespread shortages of survival necessities become the norm.
Stage 3: Political collapse. Faith that “the government will take care of you” is lost. As official attempts to mitigate widespread loss of access to commercial sources of survival necessities fail to make a difference, the political establishment loses legitimacy and relevance.
Stage 4: Social collapse. Faith that “your people will take care of you” is lost, as local social institutions, be they charities or other groups that rush in to fill the power vacuum run out of resources or fail through internal conflict.
Stage 5: Cultural collapse. Faith in the goodness of humanity is lost. People lose their capacity for “kindness, generosity, consideration, affection, honesty, hospitality, compassion, charity” Families disband and compete as individuals for scarce resources.”
Dmitry Orlov believes we should do everything in our power to avoid a social collapse or worse a cultural collapse. We should spend our time working on building community, not tearing down the structures that have given us our present good life.
Please correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that some preppers are almost wishing for the end of the world as we know it. It’s almost like they can’t wait for civilization to fall apart. It’s like they are just waiting to “be all they can be” which might include being plunders and murders.
If you read Dmitry Orlov’s book you will realize that there are level of social breakdown where many of us would prefer death.
http://cluborlov.blogspot.ca/2008/02/five-stages-of-collapse.html
“Morality will be trumped by needs.” Or will it?
Please correct me if I am wrong but I thought one of the reasons for having religious or moral believes was to “sustain” a person during “bad times”.
BUT the original question wasn’t what to do in SHFT if your children are starving and need medicines? The original question was actions for what I would call pre-SHFT because the grid will more likely go up and down many many times before it would fail permanently: “I’m talking about the in-between time when SHTF hasn’t actually happened yet, but it appears to be imminent and is starting to unfold in a way that we here can see it but the masses are still thinking it’ll all blow over.”
During transition times, it might (and I say might) be a better strategy to protect “business as usual” (peaceful interactions and trading between people) rather than worsening a bad situation by actions that deepen the crisis even if these personal action might for a short time better our personal comfort.
I’m helping my eldest daughter with a consumer math course (Math-U-See: Stewardship) right now. Just today we were taking about credit cards and how using a credit card is a “promise to pay”. When we go into a store and find something of value we want, we and go to the cashier and “promise to pay” with a piece of plastic called a credit card.
Personally, I would not use my credit card to take property from others with the full knowledge of not intending to pay for that property. I have many socialist friends that also believe it’s okay to “steal” from corporations because the are “evil”. Personally, I see a corporation as a organized group of people. Morally, I see it as wrong to steal from an individual, or a group of individuals, or a “faceless” corporation. There is no difference for me.
You may see things differently. That’s okay. We all have different moral compasses which means we will go in different directions…
Steve Demme of Math-U-See quotes Proverbs 22:7, “The rich ruleth over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.”
But you would be “stealing” from your fellow man…
Or you could be wrong about the end of the world as we know it, and bankrupt yourself buying stuff your don’t really need when everything goes back to normal and the bills finally do come in.
Readiness has more to do with what is going on between your ears then how massive your stockpile of resources. We can only be so ready for the unknown and the unknowable.
Finding some way to find peace and tranquility NOW will go a long way with dealing with an unknowable future. Making friends with our subconscious mind is a good start in finding peace within ourselves. When we trust ourselves, we know deep down that is doesn’t matter what the future brings — we will know what to do.
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Thanks for that matt76. I like the email metaphor! The subconscious mind can be our greatest friend or our worst enemy. I would humbly suggest doing our best to make friends with our subconscious minds.
I thought I would share a story about the power of lovingkindness walking meditation. I used to live in Victoria, BC walking distance from the downtown. There are many street people people living in Victoria. Many have mental illnesses and drug addictions.
I was walking back from downtown. My youngest daughter was an infant at the time. She was on my back in a backpack, sleeping. I was one block from my home when I heard a man screaming at a couple at the bus stop. (A group of people at the bus stop were backing away from the conflict.) The woman was sobbing. The man with scared but starting to raise his voice while putting himself between the raging man and his girlfriend. Everything register in that one moment.
I thought about my infant on my back and starting crossing the street to avoid the escalating fight… But I stopped and walked back. I had been doing the lovingkindness walking meditation all morning. I walked up to the raging man. I didn’t know what I was going to say until I said it.
Very quietly to him I said: “It doesn’t have to be a bad day…”
He stop, confused and looked at me. “What did you say?”
Again, very quietly I said, “It doesn’t have to be a bad day.”
It ended just like that. The man that was ragging a moment ago, hugged me and walked away. I was as surprised as the couple. The other man then started holding and comforting the sobbing woman. I walked away, just like that. It was over.
Thanks Toby C, I found your summary at the beginning very interesting. I will read the three links with interest. Again, thanks for the very useful information.
I don’t really have anything to add but I think for many people it’s hard to stay “conscious” in city environments. I wonder if it is because our “primitive” senses are in overload. To avoid overloading our primitives senses we shut them off. Of course, most of the time this is a good strategy in a city but could be deadly in a unexpected situation.
There is a “lovingkindness” walking meditation that I have used very successfully to keep conscious in cities and large groups of people. While walking through the city, it requires looking at the face (and eyes) of every people I pass. This can be considered a act of aggression (looking at people) so in my mind I say “lovingkindness to you” as I pass the person I see. I do not smile (unless I am returning a smile) or say anything to the person I pass.
By the way, within 20-30 minutes of doing this lovingkindness walking meditation, people start spontaneously smiling at me, which I return. If I do the meditation long enough people I do not know will greet me on the street. I have no logical explanation for this reaction from people from me doing a “mental” exercise. I must be doing something to myself that makes me less threatening, some non-verbal (body language) that is communicating somehow. By the way, this meditation makes me feel really great and happy!
Don’t take my word for it. Try it yourself and see if you get the same result. I would be interested to hear either way.
Lonewolf, I think you are right. You will do better by going with your nature. For some that will be group living. For others it will be going it alone. People forget that groups can make us stronger but groups can also slow us down and make us weaker.
Personally, I know I’m not much of a “team” player either. Without my family, I would go it alone too.
Welcome Bearcat.
That is a very interesting avatar image. What is it, if you don’t mind me asking?I had to look up 4GW…. Interesting concept.
Guys, you have to remember I don’t have the same training, life experience, or beliefs. When Freedom says, “God will bless us for the sacrifice we will make”, I cannot confirm or deny such a statement. All I know is you believe that statement.
I don’t even know if there is a God and I certainly don’t feel I would know the will of God even if there was a God. As I have said before, I see the future as unmade and unknowable. Therefore, I don’t believe in predictions of the future. When you talk about “destiny”, I again, have no comment.
I’m not even arguing that standing and fighting might not be the right choice. It seems your view of standing and fighting is more of a view from the “warrior class”. Standing and fighting might be the better response for someone with your training, experience and beliefs.
As for staying and fighting, it’s just not the right choice for me. As someone from more of a “merchant class”, peaceful trading in a free society is my way to build bridges of peace and a better world. I am aware of the danger that a man with a hammer sees everything as a nail to be pounded… It is a warning for all of us, having habitual reactions to a given stimulus.
In my world, it’s okay that you are having a different reaction to the same stimulus. As for Agenda 21 and the program’s followers, I think a program of education and observation is called for. Personally, I have changed my use of language after finding out about Agenda 21 and I am much more aware of how the powers-that-be are manipulating my thoughts in this one area.
Welcome La Fayette.
I like the idea you stated that prepping is a real “fear killer”. I will wait to read your post on the topic.
