August 1, 2014 at 5:12 am #20815
So, I have been reading some history, and some personal accounts about various situations of collapse or decline (including Selcos’ stuff). One thing that always strikes me is that, at least from what I read, there is never a total collapse of “order,” more a shift (though there is still tons of violence and torture).
Basically, when there are no more police, it seems the following type of groups spring up and fill the vacumn:
Political organizations like the Nazi SA stormtroopers
Militia’s and Paramilitaries, like the Taliban
Self formed survival groups
Organized crime, like the Italian mafia, Russian mafia, or Mexican drug cartels
So, I am interested to hear from people who have actually “been there and done that,” as to what actually happens when the state collapses? What, if anything, fills the vacumn left by organized structures?August 1, 2014 at 11:02 am #20824
There s always gonna be some groups who gonna try to seize power when SHTF, no matter what names they gonna have, and causes, but in great majority methods gonna be bad. And point is to stay out of the groups with that methods, especially in urban settings.
They not gonna call them selves gangs, they may be “freedom fighters” or whatever, fighting for “cause” or to restore the “order”.
I have seen many of those groups, bad experiences.August 1, 2014 at 3:15 pm #20828
In the USA some cops will get through the storm. Every one of them will decide that they are the rule of law. No matter what the situation is, be prepared to deal with cops.August 1, 2014 at 3:53 pm #20829
<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>74 wrote:</div>Tsar,<br>
In the USA some cops will get through the storm. Every one of them will decide that they are the rule of law. No matter what the situation is, be prepared to deal with cops.
Actually, for 95% of cops, they couldn’t care less.
They just want to be left alone, them and theirs.
Sure there are always self important jack-wipes in any organization, but honestly, the regular cops don’t like them either.
The cops are the least of your worries. they will be too busy just staying alive to worry about you.
Think about it this way, there isn’t a cop anywhere who hasn’t pissed some crook off, be it a DUI, dope, or just catching them being stupid. Only in the major cities can a cop be anonymous, everywhere else, people know where you live, what you drive, when you work. And without some form of restraint, i.e. the threat of jail, those same people will be out doing even more stupid things, like trying to get revenge.
During the initial stages, the cops will still be trying to keep a handle on things, that’s their job. They’re still going to be trying to help people.
After that, when it gets beyond control, when they’re told to go home and protect their families, or perhaps before and they see that it’s too late, they are going home. And god himself won’t be able to stop them from that.
The really funny part, there’s a surprising number of preppers in PD blue. They may not admit it, being even more opsec concerned than many, but if you actually get to know your local LEO’s, they’re not all bad and you never know that trainings you might be invited to, unofficially of course.August 1, 2014 at 4:43 pm #20834
No offense intended to you or the good cops out there but you might have your numbers reversed. 5% good guys – 95% A-holes.August 1, 2014 at 5:10 pm #20836
I don’t deny the arsehat quotient, but was referring to the concept of cops taking control or being a problem in a SHTF situation.
They’ll be home with their kids, not trying to make things worse.August 1, 2014 at 7:50 pm #20841
Okay hope your % 100 correct , well I actually.would not mind if they stay on the job.August 1, 2014 at 9:11 pm #20844
I would agree about staying on the job, but who’s gonna protect their families?
It all depends on the situation what will happen.
Short term is one thing, a couple days to weeks is hard enough on a person.
But you start talking about no .gov, no jails, no pay to cover the time and expenses, now it’s a whole different ball game.
HIstoricaly, looking at the NY blackouts, Hurricanes Sandy, Isaac, Katrina and more, the cops stayed and helped but they also knew they had both the citizens and the .gov behind them.
Cops are a target with a bright shiny bullseye on their chest. And that’s today with everything being reasonably normal. Have something bad happen and suddenly you’re the one representative of the .gov that everyone can identify and target.
I do not expect many LEO’s to stay on the job in the case of a severe SHTF situation, once the full extent of the incident is known.
Heck, look at Liberia, they shut the schools, sent everyone home to help stop the spread of ebola.
They are considering a quarantine to help stop the disease.
Now look at that from a LE perspective, you don’t want to get that, certainly don’t want to take that home with you.
Do you go into work knowing you are risking even more than usual, or do you stay home and keep your family safe?
You swore an oath to protect and serve.
But there is a limit to what you can do and the associated risks.
Now and then.August 2, 2014 at 12:05 am #20851
cops world biggest gang and dont forget it they preach it they think it they act like it it wont change after will just con the stupid into thinking its all ok the police are here to help…
it is now like in mexico if you have a problem and call police you now have two problemsAugust 2, 2014 at 12:27 am #20855
If a community wants the cops to stay on duty during what will be a long term SFTF scenario, the community will need to ensure the safety and well being of the cop’s families. I doubt there are many communities that are that well organized. Thus, the cops will abandon their duties and head home virtually everywhere.
Personally I think most cops do try to do the right thing but there are enough who are in it for all the wrong reasons or who are on a power trip that average people are increasingly fearful of police. That their unions rally around the bad apples rather than shed themselves of them only adds to the problem.
My apologies here for going off on a tangent but the reasons cops won’t stay on duty in a long term SHTF scenario is the same reason that the folks working in power plants, hospitals, and so forth will also abandon their jobs. They need to tend their own families.August 2, 2014 at 3:50 am #20886
AKAugust 2, 2014 at 2:23 pm #20898
I have a few minutes before today kicks off (yesterday was a marathon maintenance day… mowing, trimming, raking, sweeping, moving a half ton of compost/poo and topsoil, generally getting our little place presentable for a couple dozen family and friends for after Dad’s internment on Monday… I was pretty cooked, so Mrs. Malgus let me sleep in a bit… she just tromped in – me knocked out on the couch – and hollered some question or other… which, of course, startled the **** out of me, so now I’m more-or-less awake and working on a cup of coffee… which is why I have a few minutes..)…
Don’t want to turn this into a I-hate-cops-because-here’s-why-and-they-all-suck thread… but I do have a couple points:
1. namelus is right about cops being the biggest gang. They all dress in the same clothes, all go armed, all speak in their own special code, all have a them-vs-us mentality, etc. This isn’t hardly at all different than a street gang, except cops operate under color of law.
2. Whirl is partially right. In a short-term emergency, cops know that Da Fedrul Goobermint has their back, that help, though it might be tardy, is on the way. Some will stick around, not all, as is evidenced by the events in NOLA.
3. To points 1 and 2, most cops have family to worry about. But, some don’t. These can (notice I did not say “will”) turn into the worst looters – again, as is evidenced during NOLA. A small crew of NOLA cops used and abused their authority to chase away other looters, thereby saving the best loot for themselves. Even the regular looters were bitching and complaining to the MSM that the cops were chasing them off, saving the best loot for themselves. If street looters are bitching about the cops being worse than they are, you know it’s bad.
They then took this stolen loot and sequestered it all in an apartment that was above the flood line. Security provided by – guess who? – MORE corrupt cops who had the advantage of being “legally” armed with fully-automatic weaponry.
4. Whirl is right in that during a long-term emergency – EMP, etc – where Da Fedrul Goobermint ain’t coming to the rescue, most cops won’t give two squirts of warm piss about you and your problems. They got their own families to worry about and will happily run you over in an effort to get to them. (NB: In their defense, that’s not a trait amongst just cops. I myself will happily run someone over in an effort to get to my family too, if you were attempting to stop me or bar my way… and that’s if I were limited to just a car.) Not to keep bashing on NOLA, but >some< cops did steal their issue patrol cars and used the lights and sirens to bypass traffic jams in an effort to get home to their families… we’re all conditioned like Pavlov’s Dog to get out of the way for an emergency vehicle. The cops know this and some used it to their own personal advantage… which is f*%ked up, but there it is…
5. I think that some law enforcement – specifically Sheriff’s – will try longer to maintain order. MOST Sheriffs are good men, live locally and know the people in the community personally. They will at least try to hold the center. Of course, just by playing the odds, some will also be dirtbags, but the odds are in our favor. Problem is, that most rural Sheriffs Offices are staffed only for small(ish) events and day-to-day operations. A BIG, long term disaster will leave many woefully understaffed… it is entirely possible we will see old time “posse’s” return, where the Sheriff swears in a couple dozen guys at a time….
6. In a power vacuum, of course folks will tribe up and form militias, even if only for self-defense. Yes, some will take it upon themselves to enforce their version of order, and I’m not advocating for anything or anyone here, but seriously – what is the alternative? Total anarchy? You guys KNOW that there’s gonna be some real sick-o’s who are just itching for something like this to happen so they can run rampant and live out their fantasies in real life… if those f*ckers get caught and hanged without a trial or shot dead and put on display, well? So what?
7. Religious groups, even fundies, I don’t mind much. In fact, I think we could do with a bit more religion in our lives, if only to provide a spiritual and moral compass… but, once they start burning people for being witches, then I got a problem. So long as they’re peaceful, I got no beef with them.
I could get really windy and just blather on, but time’s a-wasting… plus, the Missus is giving me the stinkeye… we got food and beer and booze to buy, plus – and I know you all will find this hilarious – I don’t own a suit. Really. Well, there’s the one I got married in, but if you all think I can fit my ass into that thing at 17 years range, you’re a better comedian than me… so, we gotta go hunt down something nice for me and our son…
Be back later… hopefully.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1August 2, 2014 at 3:19 pm #20899
I live in a wealthy county – outside any large town. The county is very long. There are maybe 4 sheriffs on duty at any one time. Everyone knows this. Unless there is a vehicle accident or reported theft you never see them – a sheriff’s vehicle. They do all their patrolling close to the towns. I live on the edges of a tiny unincorporated village with a small, old market and a reduced hours post office the size of my bathroom. I can open the door, stick my arm in and open my postal box without going inside. We do have an active volunteer fire department, surrounded by forests and open fields as we are…it’s a necessity in the drier years.
When bad summer storms cut us off by felling huge trees all over the roads, or we are dumped with 20″ or more of snow, there’s an unofficial group of local ‘leaders’ that take over, keep everyone informed, ask for help and get things done. Our ‘community trail’ group works with them (we are a bit younger on average) and can rally the bodies that have the strength and stamina to get some of the physical stuff done at times like that. The ‘elders’ know what we are doing and endorse it and have been very supportive and gotten key landowners on board with our plans for possible future defensive needs of our area. They’ve helped smooth the way and provided introductions to others working in immediately adjacent areas we probably never would have known about otherwise.
Last week a neighbor down the road had $40,000 of new equipment disappear. He really needed them for his business and faced losing important income without them. He didn’t call the cops first. He called a meeting that night. Local ‘elders’ and trail group. Turns out a few other minor theft incidents of equipment had been happening lately. We got out the maps and pinpointed where they had occurred and who lived where. Who might need to be questioned or watched. Took a couple of days but neighbor had his stolen commercial mowers returned night before last. A fairly recent new ‘ tenant ‘ in a rental on a neighboring farm did receive an unexpected visit from the cops who arrested him (not for the theft) but for all the drugs they found at his place and the makings for a meth lab. They also found a pile of chain saws, weed eaters, compressors and such in one of the bedrooms.
We all are trying to be more self-sufficient around these parts and gaining some more like minds. The eyes that are watching out for each other and the community are growing. Nice to see some apathy beginning to fall away.
Enjoy your day all. Lunch is over. Back to the fields.August 2, 2014 at 5:17 pm #20902
Depending on who you ask around in SHTF & Hurricane Katrina… law enforcement were helpful… a threat…or a bit of both. In SHTF scenario law enforcement conduct will probably be all over the map particularly in urban settings that are a powder keg already (e.g. gangs). Many municipalities struggle to fund police departments which often impact morale among their officers. A family friend was (now retired) a high ranking police officer in Dallas PD and I heard an earful from time to time. It’s like any profession good apples and bad apples.
Dallas PD survey:
“They commented after 80 percent of the 1,279 officers who took the survey rated their own morale “low” or “the lowest it’s ever been.” The respondents account for roughly a third of the department’s 3,500 sworn officers.”
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/metro/20140731-dallas-police-association-survey-finds-morale-is-low-among-officers.ece — Whatever their reasoning for low morale…it will play out in various ways in SHTF.August 2, 2014 at 7:47 pm #20904
Like most preppers I watched NOLA at the time of Katrina with keen interest. This included how the police, the residents and the various govt. response entities behaved. I was mesmerized, shocked, and appalled. There is no doubt but that the police were more part of the problem than they were of the solution. I am not convinced that is automatically transferable everywhere else though. NOLA is as close to a 3rd world city as have in the US. Its city govt is corrupt to the core, and the police are just part of that system. Louisiana has the highest murder rate in the nation and consistently one of the highest violent crime rates. State govt.in LA is not exactly known for its high standards.
That said, I expect that big city police in other locales will behave worse post-SHTF than their small town and rural counterparts, for the same reason that people in general will behave worse in big cities, they are anonymous. It is very difficult to be anonymous in small settings, and the public knows who the police are and where they live.
Here in VT, I am not concerned with the police becoming a gang. Most folks are armed and there just aren’t enough police to make for much of a gang. We don’t even have 24 hour State Police coverage. There are a few hours in the wee hours of the night when there aren’t any State Police on duty. Only the larger towns have their own police depts. Most towns are covered by the County Sheriffs Depts. I read in the paper that my town shares one deputy with 6 other towns for patrol duty and initial response. It is the rare day that I see a deputy go through my neighborhood on patrol. The State Police will back them up, but whether it is someone from the Sheriff’s Dept or the State Police, the closest one might be half an hour away or more unless luck of the draw has someone nearby when you call. Note that VT consistently has one of the lowest murder and violent crime rates in the nation. Clearly it is due to cultural factors and not a heavy police presence.
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