April 14, 2014 at 8:56 pm #8627
Very interesting video.April 15, 2014 at 2:34 am #8675
surprised they didnt test the PKM , that is very popular and common , in 7.62x54rApril 15, 2014 at 2:59 am #8679
Well it’s more powerful the the 7.62 x 51 so we know what the results would be.April 15, 2014 at 4:40 am #8683
Actually the difference Is minimal, within 100 fps, for both conventional bullet weights, so the difference on target is going to more dependent on bullet construction.
For years, mild steel bullets that have been copper plated have been available, out penetrating conventional copper/lead bullets normally.
Winchester white box 7.62 “Nato” loads use these bullets.
Now, add some of the various “black tip” bullets available and everything changes again. Having loaded numerous .308’s with M2 AP bullets, one can completely change the performance of the weapon by merely changing the bullet.
Then when we add the .308 to the mix, it gets even muddier.
Because the .308 can and is loaded to higher pressure and velocities, it can be more “effective” than the x54 or x51 choices, at least if the weapon can handle the difference. Some can’t.
Penetration tests can be interesting, at the same time it is not the end all be all want or need.
Choose your ammo accordingly.April 15, 2014 at 10:49 am #8704
The tests show what you cannot / should not use for cover as much as they demonstrate the offensive capability of any given round. You don’t get to pick your opponent’s ammo. The other important aspect demonstrated in the video is the affects to the projectile after passing through the initial barrier. Most of the rounds continue and penitrate though the soft armor on the manikins. Additionally bullet fragmentation is prevalent showing how large areas within a building are subject to disabling injuries with a single round.April 15, 2014 at 5:17 pm #8762
I concur, I was going for the delivering side of the equation not the receiving.
You are correct, it’s always something to think about.
In picking one’s own ammo, one has to pick appropriately. Be it FMJ, JHP or who knows what.
When choosing your own cover, something that will stop and defeat the largest caliber the ‘enemy’ might have is probably the most appropriate. Here in the US, the .50BMG is likely the worst thing one might face, outside of ‘shaped’ or breaching charges. But if it gets that bad, I hardly think we will be wondering whether or not our condo walls will stop bullets.
The problem? Most of the things we consider cover are only concealment, brick walls that are only a facade, interior walls that are merely two sheets of drywall and hardly stop a spitwad. Such is the reality of US and most modern construction in first world countries.
Bullets, especially large heavy bullets are hard to stop, especially in modern construction materials.
I am reminded of a story that Elmer Keith related in one of his books.
Seems a bank robber decided to hole up in a second story hotel room up in Montana, and took a shot at the outside folk down below.
Well the townspeople took offense at this, got together and shot up the hotel room from the outside.
Several hundred rifle rounds later, they removed the sieve-like crook from the room.
This was back when construction was stronger and better.
Yet he was chewed up.
Then there’s Elfego Baca, survivor of probably more incoming rounds outside a war zone than anyone else.
There are many versions of the story, but here’s a snippet worth reading.
Nineteen-year-old Elfego Baca answered the call. After arresting one of the cowboys, a standoff ensued and Baca took shelter in a tiny mud shack, the jacal belonging to Geronimo Armijo. His fortress was made only of sticks and mud. Eighty cowhands from the surrounding ranches surrounded the shack and engaged in a gunfight, during which the men fired more than 4,000 rounds into the jacal. Baca and a status of Saint Anne survived the onslaught and emerged after thirty-six hours unharmed.
The Frisco Shootout was the largest and longest gunfight in history. One lone man with two 6-guns against about 80 well-heeled cowboys. After the gunfight, the atrocities against the local citizens of the Frisco valley stopped.
Elfego was tried and acquitted of killing one of the cowboys after the door to the jacal, with over 360 bullets, was presented as evidence.
The jacal had a floor 1.5 feet lower than the outside ground level, everything went over Baca.
A broomstick in the corner had 8 holes in it alone.
Location might just be as important as anything. Don’t be where the bullets are going.April 16, 2014 at 1:54 am #8823
A friend of mine has a saying “All incoming rounds have the right of way.”April 18, 2014 at 12:58 am #9353
Thats Funny !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!August 21, 2014 at 11:39 pm #22914
A friend of mine has a saying “All incoming rounds have the right of way.”
Heh, I know that guy!
"ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....
Cogito, ergo armatus sumSeptember 22, 2014 at 12:15 am #25196
I know the formula for standard/expected obstacle penetration and the way it goes, excluding bullet composition, is:
Mass x Velocity Multiplier
divided by (Density of Target) x Diameter x Diameter
(the velocity multiplier takes into account the velocity, density of the bullet material, tensile strength of the bullet, and the tensile strength of the target material which is a divisor – this is all taken by a Log function so the results are not linear or easy to predict)
(to make that long story short, increasing velocity doesnt increase penetration at a linear rate)
So penetration will be more greatly aided by making the bullet heavier and reducing its velocity. And making it so that it does not deform or fragment (which would increase its diameter on impact).
Making the bullet thinner increases its penetration drastically. But when you reduce caliber size the length of the bullet is normally reduced too, which reduces its mass drastically too, and that makes up for any reduction in diameter.
The 9mm VSSK bullet is an example of a low velocity round that has an immense amount of penetration. Even though it only has about as much firepower as a .45 or .357 maybe, it has as much penetration as an AK-47. Thats because its an armor piercing bullet that weighs 250 grains and is only 9mm wide.
For a subsonic round its also got an effective range of 300-400 yards, because its heavy, and because alot of that weight is in the back as a boat tail.
Thats why a Shotgun wont penetrate like a .308 even though it has just as much firepower. It does get an edge on property destruction because of the damage it causes, but against an armor plate or even a vest its not going to penetrate. It spreads that energy out over a huge amount of area (18.5mm width of projectile vs 8mm width for a .308).
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