November 24, 2015 at 3:29 pm #45440
Several years ago Syria shot down a Turkish jet. Guess the Turks were not taking any chances this time!
RobinNovember 24, 2015 at 4:28 pm #45442
Clearly this is the type of escalation everyone fears. Shooting down an airplane and killing the pilots could easily be considered and act of war, in fact I don’t see what else it could be called. Turkey is obviously allies with ISIS buying their oil and supplying equipment. The true sides will be exposed soon.
November 24, 2015 at 4:41 pm #45443
- This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by 74.
Link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7343nXyGS0s – English
Putin: Downing of Russian jet over Syria stab in the back by terrorist accomplicesNovember 24, 2015 at 6:29 pm #45451
The true sides will be exposed soon.
Yes 74, they will. Of course Barack Hussein Obama has been cozying up to Turkey of late. Throw in our giving 45 minute notices before bombing convoys and you really have to wonder whose side he is on himself.November 24, 2015 at 7:04 pm #45453
MB: There is no doubt that the only side he is on is his own. The frightening thing is that with the exception of Putin and Netanyahu can you name another world leader that looks like he knows what he is doing. The US and EU just dither their way through while having high level discussions on climate change. A situation they equate with terrorism.
The 45 minute notice to the drivers of the ISIS oil tankers is beyond belief. It makes my head hurt. Can you imagine the commanders having to stand in front of their troops giving those orders. Meanwhile the media continues to give him every break they can.
When history writes about the collapse of the American empire, the media will play a starring role, next to Congress and the President.November 24, 2015 at 10:17 pm #45454
[Y]ou really have to wonder whose side he is on himself.
No, I don’t! If the short history of his “reign” doesn’t make it clear, the longer history of his upbringing and “work’ does. He’s not the first America-hater to hold the office … just the first to be so open about it.
Roadracer, add the Public Fool System to your short list.
November 25, 2015 at 2:56 am #45457
- This reply was modified 4 years, 11 months ago by L Tecolote.
What we know so far (according to the “news”):
According to reports from multiple sources, there appears to be NO claim Russia was targeting ISIS. They were targeting Turkmen tribesmen (anti-Assad). ISIS is reportedly not even in that area.
According to at least two sides (the Turkmen and the Russians), at least one pilot was deliberately shot (and killed) as he parachuted to the ground.
In one report, Turkey says the violation was all of 17 seconds, with 10 radio warnings in that time period (presumably on the Guard channel – a universal frequency recognized by all nations’ air forces, and ALWAYS monitored while flying regardless of any other frequency being used – there are at least two receivers, one for Guard, and the other as part of the transceiver for normal 2-way communication).
The US (via “our” President) has come out in support of Turkey’s right to defend its airspace.
A Russian marine (“soldier” in another story) was killed on board a rescue helicopter that was shot up as it attempted to rescue one or both downed pilots. The rescue helicopter was subsequently destroyed by somebody’s mortar fire (presumably the Turkmen, but who knows at this point?). The rest of the Russian rescuers were themselves later rescued and flown to safety by Russia (to a Russian base in Syria).
With all that, I offer the following. First, you just don’t EVER shoot pilots as they parachute to the ground following a bailout. That hit me deep in the gut, as a former Air Force pilot – that just is not done! Even the North Vietnamese regulars captured our pilots as they bailed out of their downed aircraft. Where’s anyone’s outrage at the serious violations just in shooting a parachuting pilot as he descends helplessly, or a rescue helicopter (killing someone on that rescue mission)?
What about escorting the plane out of Turkish airspace? It was Turkish F-16s that shot down the Russian aircraft.
Seventeen SECONDS of violation (that’s Turkey’s figure according to BBC – the Russians, of course, deny even violating Turkey’s airspace)? Seventeen SECONDS? How do you make 10 warning transmissions in 17 seconds? You can’t say anything in the way of a warning transmission in 1.7 seconds and repeat such calls 10 times? OK, maybe the Russian plane was getting close, so the Turks started warning him 10 seconds prior to crossing the border. No, let’s make that a very generous 20 seconds – which is considerable distance at the speeds being traveled. The last few seconds of the violation don’t even count, because the anti-aircraft missile was in the air for several of those seconds, and the video appears to how the plane at a reasonably substantial altitude. So let’s go with 20 + a very generous 12 seconds, or 32 seconds to make 10 warning radio transmissions. Whoopee – not even counting keying and unkeying the mic button, pausing a moment, then rekeying the mic button to make the next transmission, that’s all of 3.2 seconds per warning call. What can you say in 3.2 seconds that constitutes a warning (try it and time it)? Total BravoSierra. And the US is supporting this cr@p? So fine – the time simply makes that 17 second time frame impossible. We can move to claimed scenario #2.
Alternative time line: Turkey also is reported to have said they warned the Russian jets 10 times in five minutes, not 17 seconds (whoopee – 30 seconds per transmission including pauses between warnings). Even given that, the two Russian aircraft were equipped for relatively low level bombing, and it was Turkish F-16s that shot it down (the bomber was no match for two high performance fighters). So why not fly right up close and personal, as is so commonly done, and “escort” the aircraft out or at least let it continue defying the Turkish aircraft before shooting it down? The Turks aren’t even claiming the jet was many miles inside their territory – in one story, less than a mile (0.62 miles).
On the Russian’s side, they destroyed their own argument that they’re in there after ISIS (not that anybody believed that was their primary objective). They’re propping up Assad, which arguably may avoid a worse evil if a sudden power vacuum is created by his ouster or killing. But then what’s all the talk about trying to ally with Russia in “their” fight against ISIS? Again, a load of Bovine Cr@pola.
The other observations about Obama cozying up to Erdogan are, of course, both well established and well taken.
So, we’ve got Russia deliberately talking out of both sides of its mouth (nothing new), Washington playing games that are serious beyond reason, both Russia and the US using their proxies to create an ever more dangerous situation, and no end in sight. Add North Korea and Iran funneling in weapons to the region, and solid evidence that the US has helped BUILD (if not create) ISIS in the first place. On top of that, look at the power vacuums in Libya, Iraq, and (effectively) Syria, among others, with the US playing out its dangerous games in each of those countries. It makes no sense to almost anyone, and therefore people continue to (with the “news” media’s help) draw the conclusion that Barack Hussein Obama is inept and doesn’t know what he’s doing. I submit that he knows EXACTLY what he’s doing (as does the semi-hidden team behind him – Ms. Valerie, et al).
Proposal: This might appropriately be moved to the WWIII thread, since anyone with more than three brain cells to rub together knows that Syria is a proxy war between the US and the
Soviets(oops – there I go again) Russians. This is getting more and more dangerous almost by the day. And with Biblical prophecy discussing massive troop movements down from the north (including areas that would seem almost certain to include Russia, Syria, and Turkey), anyone factoring in those prophecies has even more to chew on. Either way, it ain’t lookin’ good.
I admit to having almost gotten suckered into thinking we might be able to work with Russia (probably behind the scenes) against ISIS. That’s not what they’re about. Nationalists at heart? Yes, most probably. But is that the end of their aim? I don’t think so. If one goes back to classic communist philosophy (practical as well as theoretical), it’s a multi-generational struggle. You “lose” a struggle, taking a step or two backwards, figuratively (then literally) disarm your enemy while building strength, and later move forward three or four steps. Up and back, but ever forward overall. Putin’s obvious intent to remain in power personally over Russia as long as he can – simply changing jobs along the way. Adding that to his solid KGB roots does not suggest we’re looking at a reformed man with whom we can deal. One can explain away Crimea and eastern Ukraine as nationalistic interests only, but I have never, ever, believed that when the wall came down, the struggle was over. It just looked that way, and we were fed that until all but us old folks believe that struggle was dead decades ago. WWIII in the making indeed – Biblical prophecies included or not.
2¢November 25, 2015 at 3:39 am #45462
Great analysis. Could not agree more. All I can say is Amen!November 25, 2015 at 12:13 pm #45463
I read an article published in one of the Russia news outlets (I made a link somewhere on the forum months ago) about what will be Putin’s rightful place in history. The article suggested Putin would be comparable to Napoleon Bonaparte, Stalin and Churchill. Coming from a Russian publication I have to believe the article was pre approved by Putin. Even though the piece was propaganda intended for Russian consumpion, I believe it shows Putin’s intention to leave an indelible mark in world geopolitical alignment.November 25, 2015 at 2:44 pm #45467
Yesterday I heard a radio news report that said Turks can expect NO more heating oil from Russia after the shoot down and deaths of pilots —November 25, 2015 at 2:54 pm #45468
Thank you Georgia Saint! Very good input.November 25, 2015 at 4:02 pm #45470
74, he may be the most brilliant leader to come along in the world. Look what he’s accomplished. He’s rallied the Russian people behind him despite socio-economic condititions in the country, and induced external ethnic Russians to participate in “repatriation” of their geographic areas to Mother Russia. He’s built a formidable petro industry capable of crippling much of Europe with the flip of a gas line switch, and has a massive pipeline system unencumbered by Keystone-like regulatory issues (a system that goes all the way to the Pacific coast. He’s built a modern military with capabilities that are impressive (we now know he can launch multiple cruise missiles from far distances with tremendous accuracy, just as one example). He’s articulate, intelligent, and a master at manipulation to the point that many see him as a hero and modern day legend. And he’s been doing this over a very long time.
1999 Became Prime Minister
1999-2000 Became acting President upon Boris Yeltsin’s resignation (nice move into the position that automatically put him there when Yeltsin resigned!)
2000-2004 President (1st term)
2004-2008 President (2nd term)
2008-2012 Prime Minister (2nd term – only because their constitution barred a 3rd consecutive term as President – of course we all know who had the real power, as evidenced in part by Obama’s open-microphone statement to Medvedev to tell Vladimir that Obama would have more flexibility once he – Obama – was elected to a 2nd term)
2012-present President (3rd term)
If one goes back and looks at his earlier history, it LOOKS rather lackluster, but he managed to insert himself in very key positions that continuously propelled him higher and higher. Putin is not just a very lucky man, he’s a rather brilliant strategist, and doing a better job of it than any other single leader in the world. While the Chinese have made very significant gains in the past decade plus, it’s been done under multiple leaders. Putin has outlasted EVERYone of any significance.
As a post script to the story (so far), the surviving navigator/pilot of the downed bomber is quoted as follows: “I can’t wait until I get the all-clear from the medics, so that I can step back into the ranks. I’m going to ask our command to keep me on this base — I have a debt to repay, for my commander.” You can bet Vladimir is on board with that comment. He does not forget, and payback with him is well south of heaven. The surviving crew member said they received no warning whatsoever, and that given their speed vs. the Turkish F-16s, the F-16s could have easily overtaken the Russian bomber and visually warned them. He is holding to his denial of any radio transmission of warning.
Stand by….November 25, 2015 at 4:28 pm #45471
Yesterday I heard a radio news report that said Turks can expect NO more heating oil from Russia after the shoot down and deaths of pilots —
I’m not sure about heating oil since Turkey actually supplies oil to others (including Europe). However, the situation is far worse with gas. Turkey has reportedly been getting the majority of their gas from Russia because they can get it much cheaper from Russia than they can from Iran. Ooops! Iran? What another great opportunity for Iran to swoop in if Russia cuts off Turkey’s gas supply – they could become Turkey’s savior as winter sets in, further solidifying their position in the region (wouldn’t Iran’s friend, Barack, be pleased!).
This is a terribly intriguing massive chess game in the entire region. WWIII is already being fought – the two (three? including China) first-string players just haven’t come in to replace the JV teams – yet. As Paul Harvey used to say, “Stand by for NEWS!” And as Alan Stang used to sign off from his radio programs, “Think about it!”
[Roadracer and Selco, thank you. I’m just glad to know I’m not the only one seeing things as they are.]November 25, 2015 at 4:42 pm #45472
It would be better if you were the only one seeing what’s happening, then we could just say nah you’re nuts. But that’s not how it is. I’m expecting the other players (China, N Korea, anyone else) to throw in something to raise the stakes.November 25, 2015 at 5:27 pm #45475
I’m expecting the other players (China, N Korea, anyone else) to throw in something to raise the stakes.
Me too. The (weird?) thing is, even Biblical prophesy includes what appears to be the Chinese, or at least major player(s) from the “east,” along with the massive armies from the north (Russia? through Syria, Turkey, etc.). I hardly watch any TV news anymore, but my wife – who NEVER followed the news in years past – watches a great deal of TV news (so called, anyway). I dig deeper, using less-reliable sources sometimes, and then going to fairly mainstream news sources through such resources as Google News (for confirmation) where you can find major news sources (AP, Reuters, etc.) that have published stories that simply don’t get picked up by the mass media outlets. I’m constantly hearing from my wife (quite rhetorically only, out of frustration – she really does understand what’s going on), “Why is that not on the news?!?” There is so much significant news that is being selectively unreported to the masses – but that’s all part of the manipulation that goes far beyond any single state player. The various bordered political entities really probably have little idea just how much even they are being manipulated and used. I honestly believe that while Obama, Putin, Rouhani, Xi, and so forth, think they have great power, they’re all being manipulated masterfully, with only limited awareness on their own parts.
I personally think that one of the most brilliant movie scripts, proven by its relevance today, was “Three Days of the Condor.” Whether it’s indeed ALL about oil, as we learned at the end, that movie hits home runs in multiple areas in terms of what actually happens in the world, and how the official government lines (ours, or anyone else’s) are merely for public consumption. That movie is now 40 years old – truly amazing. Just update the cars and clothing, and perhaps just a little bit of the world circumstances to better “look” like 2015, and the movie is as current as could be. It’s truly amazing. (Plus, it’s a great movie just by itself anyway, if you can still find it.) The aloof, a-political Joubert (Max von Sydow) shows how “it” is all done – very deliberately, without any conscience, without loyalty, yet with the underlying understanding that something much greater than one or two bordered nation are really running things. His counsel to Condor (Robert Redford) near the end as he explains “how it will happen,” goes to all sorts of levels. And Higgins’ (Cliff Robertson) explanation to Condor at the very end, capped with the terrifying question, “How do you know they’ll print it?”, also shows how so many things are done (or not done). Great education masquerading as a brilliant movie in just 117 minutes.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.