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  • #44146
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Selco,

    As our fearless and very knowledgeable leader, I came across this recap of the Yugoslavian situation and how Western Civilization could possibly go down that road…

    Interested in what you think of this article – it’s accuracy, the premise, etc.

    http://20committee.com/2015/03/02/yugoslavias-warning-to-america/

    This bit stood out the most, for me…

    Worse, economic problems, including unemployment and inflation that impoverished Yugoslavs rapidly — by the time the country went over the cliff in 1991, real incomes were half what they had been a generation before — exacerbated the country’s serious ethnic grievances. When combined with economic emergency, Yugoslavia’s ethnic politics proved a lethal combination that led directly to wars and genocide.

    Yugoslavia was a very diverse country, ethnically and religiously, and the divisions between groups were real and serious. Unlike 21st century Americans, Yugoslavs were under no illusions that “diversity is our greatest strength” — they knew the opposite was the truth — and the Communists went to great lengths to keep ethnic peace by banning what we would term “hate speech” while mandating that the official doctrine that Yugoslavia’s diverse peoples really loved each other deeply be placed at the level of quasi-religious dogma.

    Rewriting history, to show certain ethnic groups as victims and others as perpetrators of race-based crimes, took its toll, since Yugoslavs knew this was too simple, and was being used as a political weapon by the authorities. Aggressive “affirmative action” in education and employment — Belgrade termed it the “ethnic key” — was another perennial sore-spot for many citizens, since ethnic status and ties often mattered more than competence. Needless to add, this hardly helped the economy either.

    For those who do not want to read the whole article, the Author ends by saying that the Yugoslavian situation – and by extension, the US situation – was and is anything but preordained – I disagree.

    Crushing people from different cultures – often openly hostile to each other – into a small area with “peace” only maintained by the Almighty State and their enforcers, coupled with economic disaster – it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to say that Very Bad Things will happen as a result.

    Looking forward to your thoughts…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #44152
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    I’m interested in what Selco has to say too, or others who also lived in such places. As noted in the past I have never lived anywhere that had racial or ethnic diversity. As for religious diversity where I grew up most folks were either Catholic or Jewish and there wasn’t any tension so that doesn’t count either. I was in college before I even knew there was such a thing as antisemitism. Others here that have lived in more diverse places probably understand these things better than I do but I remain puzzled as to how exactly it is that diversity is supposed to make countries or communities stronger or better. To me, it is as if they are saying that we are deficient in some manner and the others (whoever they may be) are going to compensate for those deficiencies. It is especially puzzling when the diversity that govt keeps saying will make us stronger must be supported by entitlements due to lack of education, skills, and ability to speak English, or the new folks increase crime rates due to cultural differences that are at odds with established culture/law or just plain lack of screening out those with criminal backgrounds, or in the case of Muslims an unwillingness to accept secular govt with freedom of speech and freedom of religion as major underpinnings of the society they are joining. On the black/white tension in the US, they do not tell us how moving Section 8 housing into middle or upper middle class neighborhoods will make those neighborhoods better, especially when history seems to show that they bring the ghetto with them rather than leave the ghetto behind.

    Even looking at a 1st world country such as Canada, centuries have come and gone but the English vs French tension has never fully gone away and I suspect someday Quebec will finally secede.

    It seems that pushing the US to become more diverse is not going to make it better, but again, others here my understand this better than I.

    #44165
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    One must understand the basics of what’s really going on. Once that is understood, it all makes sense. And unfortunately, I have to agree with Malgus. The end IS preordained (and not by Deity). From Karl and Fred 167 years ago:

    The Communists fight for the attainment of the immediate aims, for the enforcement of the momentary interests of the working class; but in the movement of the present, they also represent and take care of the future of that movement. … But they never cease, for a single instant, to instill into the working class the clearest possible recognition of the hostile antagonism between bourgeoisie and proletariat, in order that the … workers may straightway use, as so many weapons against the bourgeoisie, the social and political conditions that the bourgeoisie must necessarily introduce along with its supremacy … . In short, the Communists everywhere support every revolutionary movement against the existing social and political order of things. … The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions.

    Forget the word “Communists.” Focus on the philosophy, learn how Cloward and Piven refined that into a more modern adaptation 100 years later, and how Alinsky provided the propagandist means that every one of them can learn in order to win the arguments in a public forum consisting of a large number of an un- or under-educated electorate that then go to the polls and codifies all of it. Then it’s the law of the land, the “will of the people,” and we’re guilty of crimes if we protest it. It’s deceptively simple, and it’s very much in play (has been for 167 years). Note that in the quoted material above, within just a few sentences (actually only eight, which comprise the very ending summary of the Manifesto) the concept of destroying the social and political order comes up not once but twice – in just eight sentences. The ONLY remaining text in that book is the four sentences which follow:

    Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution. The proletarians have nothing to lose but their chains. They have a world to win.
    Working Men of All Countries, Unite!

    So my agreement with Malgus is based on my decades-long, studied belief that we have gone too far to turn back the tide now, at least through normal political means. I believe it was preordained, and we’re in the advanced stages. A look at the 10 conditions Marx and Engels listed as the indicators of being in an “advanced” (their word) stage, at the end of their 2nd chapter, is all that’s necessary to verify that premise. The paragraph immediately preceding that list of conditions reads as follows:

    Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property, and on the conditions of bourgeois production; by means of measures, therefore, which appear economically insufficient and untenable, but which, in the course of the movement, outstrip themselves, necessitate further inroads upon the old social order, and are unavoidable … .

    Cloward and Piven understood that exceptionally well! Because “we” (collectively, not meaning this group) have not understood it, it is now to our own peril.

    But even being unaware of the rest of the Manifesto’s contents, one could study that little 3/4 page final chapter (first block quote at the top) and know all that’s really needed to at least recognize what’s happening. Again, it’s all about “the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions.” With that also goes the political, of course.

    If one does not fundamentally understand that, one fundamentally does not understand.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    #44174
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    GS,
    You have very adeptly pointed out the true conditions we have had forced upon us. Unfortunately it seems the majority of the population either fits your comments “If one does not fundamentally understand that, one fundamentally does not understand” or they understand and agree with the doctrine. I think there are two categories of understanding agreement. These people support it openly (actually few) or support forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions through subterfuge. The later make themselves look like a person that fundamentally does not understand, but refuse to reveal their true nature.

    #44200
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Gents, I’m afraid your average person falls into another category, although the ignorant is very close.

    Most people really don’t care.

    Long as they get their ‘due’, be it welfare, retirement, etc., long as that check arrives, the lights stay on and there’s food on the table,

    #44256
    Selco
    Selco
    Survivalist
    member6

    Thanks Malgus for the article, it is thought provoking, and to the some point pretty accurate probably.

    It is complicated to try to explain what exactly happened here, but I also think there are similarities, and I do think it could become very nasty there.
    Here are few thoughts, and for the moment try to forget communism, socialism and similar things that were here.

    -People here were usually proud that mix of nationalities and religions made something new, they were mostly proud to be Yugoslavs (they put Yugoslavian nationality and love to the federation of Yugoslavia first, at the second place they put from what part are they, or what group they belong)
    -Economic downfall somehow “pull out” old tensions, or if you like people remembered that they fought before between each other (group, religion etc)
    -Common folk did not care to much about Marx, Engels, socialism or communism, they cared for feeling of unity and similar, something connected them all ( with all differences between them trough the history)

    Now all this is generalization, yes, story is much more complicated, obviously system here was completely different.
    But one point is there-when things go bad, let say in economical way, all differences (races, groups, nationalities) are sharper, and then it is becoming nasty.
    Multicultural societies are perfect to become slaughter when there is no (good) thing that connect them.

    #44257
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    I think Selco hit on an absolutely key point – there was a common bond between the people, one that transcended ethnicity, religion, etc. When that breaks down, chaos can easily reign. His key point is that, “Common folk did not care to much about Marx, Engels, socialism or communism, they cared for feeling of unity and similar, something connected them all … .”

    We could potentially survive in the US if such was the case here. But the divisions among us could, and likely will result in an ethnic civil war in the US if economic conditions significantly worsen. Even though the system, as Selco pointed out, was much different there than it is in the US, for example, he correctly points out that when a feeling of unity exists, almost regardless of its basis, calm also prevails for the most part, or at least mutual support.

    Our problem here in the US (though I see it elsewhere too) is that there are those that are actively promoting the divisions among us, as part of their underlying philosophy. As I said earlier, “Forget the word ‘Communists.’ Focus on the philosophy, learn how Cloward and Piven refined that into a more modern adaptation 100 years later, and how Alinsky provided the propagandist means that every one of them can learn in order to win the arguments in a public forum.” Once the social and political order are degraded sufficiently, there is no more binding tie of nationality. And that, after all, is the stated objective of the underlying philosophy, regardless of whether a label is attached to that philosophy or not. And that philosophy must be understood, or one cannot recognize what is actually taking place right before us.

    So with all due respect (which is quite significant), I do worry when the, “Common folk [don’t] care to[o] much about Marx, Engels, socialism or communism.” It’s not the terms or originators that matter, it’s the philosophy behind it all that matters, and particularly when it’s not recognized by the common folk. Destroy the social and political order, and by definition, the fabric of a nation is destroyed.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    #44263
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    ” there are those that are actively promoting the divisions among us” GS

    Starting at the very top of our government.

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