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  • #22170
    Profile photo of tweva
    tweva
    Survivalist
    rreallife

    The only positive thing I see in this whole sad episode is, at least for a moment, some Americans who may not have been aware, were shown yet another vivid reminder of the militarization of police forces. In the next farming county down, they had one of those armored carriers in a parade not even a month ago. They have no logical reason to have such a piece of equipment down there…..more cows than people. This is not to say I, myself, would want to be a police officer these days. God Bless each and every one of them. A mostly thankless job I suspect…and in crazy times.

    #22241
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    tweva I agree that the police dept has to much military gear. Armored carriers are not built for the police or the city roads. They are for war.

    #22243
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Police militarization is a tough subject.

    LE is always on the back side of everything, reacting to situations rather than being ahead of them.

    After the BOA in Northridge, LE had to take a serious look at tactics and gear. And while some departments have gotten gear that they hopefully never use outside parades, such as MRAPs, one can also look at it like prepping. Better to have and not need.

    Again, looking at the Northridge robbers, they were pulled over by my first department some 9 months before they hit the BOA. At the time they had a number of firearms with them. What might have happened if they had decided to start trouble?
    On 9/11 we went on patrol with pistols and took a handful of shotguns with us. The department didn’t have any rifles. Not a good feeling.

    Over in Salt Lake they have an armored car, an old cash truck that was donated. Its used for emergencies but is normally set in front of problem houses to drive the bad guys away.

    People worry about the police, gearing up with heavier and heavier gear. The police worry about the criminals gearing up with heavier and heavier gear. Around here, there are more .50’s and 1000 yard rifles percentage wise than anywhere else I know of. And that is something that is always in the back of your mind.

    Just over a year ago, we had a local doper lose his mind, he ended up attempting to rob a gun shop and fired rounds from a magnum rifle back into the shop when he left. He was shot minutes later attempting to shoot local LEOs.

    This can happen in little BFE, it can happen anywhere.
    And that’s why departments are getting the gear, just like preppers, just in case.

    As for the cammies, uniform pants run $100 a pair, if you’re paying for them yourself, which does happen, you start to appreciate cheaper gear.

    #22246
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    The equipment is certainly a big part of the militarization of the police, but I am more concerned with the tactics. It is the SWAT teams and no-knock raids being used for what used to be routine matters.

    #22252
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Part of the problem comes from the routine, too many cops were getting killed because of it. You walk up to serve a warrant for a rinky dink charge and someones meeting you at the door with a rifle.

    I had a Garand pointed at me over a contempt charge (originally a dog at large ticket). Finally got the homeowner to use common sense and come down and just pay the $30 fine.

    That kind of attitude, from both sides of the badge is getting people killed.

    As to no knock raids, unless there are extreme mitigating circumstances, weapons or evidence destruction, they shouldn’t be used.

    Swat gets used more and more lately because its a training issue. Its cheaper and easier to use the Swat team to serve warrants than to train and retrain the entire department to a respectable level. Your average traffic cop is more a hazard during a warrant service than many armed dopers, and with department budgets getting cut hand over fist, its hard enough just getting in state required training let alone specialized training.

    Our local SO has had its budget cut so far by the county commissioners, they are 7 deputies down and can’t hire more, they can’t afford to send people to required training, no vacations, etc. Deputies are sent from one side of the county to the other to cover calls because there is no one available on that side.

    #22399
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Whirl,

    Sorry. I cannot and will not support cops acquiring weapons of war.

    Psychological experiments have proven such things have a powerful impact on how people act. I know you’re familiar with the experiments where some students were dressed as inmates and others dressed as prison guards in militaristic uniforms, given batons and the authority to treat the “inmates” however they wanted, etc. Within a very, very short time, the “guards” were pushing around and abusing the “inmates”. Power corrupts.

    If you dress a cop in a military uniform, outfit him with military kit, give him weapons used by the military, equip him with armored vehicles, then pretty soon, the cops will start believing they ARE the military, and then act accordingly…

    Just got done reading two stories. One about a grandmother being SWATTED because someone wrote “forbidden speech” on a website that trash-talked the police. They raided grandma, broke her **** and paraded her and her granddaughter out in chains, then found out that their WIFI had no password and someone else wrote the “forbidden speech”… of course, the DA and county attorneys said that the officers were protected… immune…

    The other story was about a homeless guy being beat down by 6 cops. Handcuffed and laying on the ground, one cop kneed him in the face 8 times. This was filmed by several witnesses. Then, one of the cops is heard saying something about confiscating the cell phones of all the witnesses… but, too late, their egregious actions were already being posted. Guess Officer No Help is sucking hind tit when it comes to confiscating footage of him beating down a defenseless, handcuffed homeless guy… the Supremes ruled they can be filmed in the course of their duties, but it doesn’t stop the SturmAbteilung from trying to steal folks’ cameras to hide their misdeeds…

    Rifles that can hit from 1000 yards have existed for well over 125 years. “Magnums”? Been around since the old Express cartridges of the 1880’s… Old news.

    “Just over a year ago, we had a local doper lose his mind, he ended up attempting to rob a gun shop and fired rounds from a magnum rifle back into the shop when he left. He was shot minutes later attempting to shoot local LEOs.

    This can happen in little BFE, it can happen anywhere.
    And that’s why departments are getting the gear, just like preppers, just in case.”

    Cops work that job because they volunteered to do it. Worked to get appointed as police officers. They were not pressed into involuntary servitude against their will.

    And since when did putting the citizens first get replaced by “everyone goes home safe at the end of their shift“? Having worked some tough environments, yeah your ass is on the line sometimes, but frankly, I VOLUNTEERED to do that work. I’m not going to go fishing for sympathy or accolades. You don’t do that sort of job because you’re seeking glory and/or recognition… and if you do, then you’re in the wrong line of work.

    You can tell yourself “just in case” all you want if it helps you sleep. The words of cops themselves condemn them. same as their actions. Like that one asshat Chief that let slip they obtained an armored vehicle and military grade hardware because returning veterans had the skills to match or exceed those possessed by his officers…

    Really? Us vets are so much of a threat that you needed to obtain a damned TANK and automatic weapons under the 1033 program?

    Then there’s the Praetorians – DHS – putting all us vets on a list as “potential terrorists”… tha’ ****?!? All the guys I know just want to be left the hell alone.. we’re not bomb throwing ******** or revolutionaries…

    Governments should fear the citizenry… not the other way around. Keeps them honest…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #22406
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Those automatic weapons (M-16’s ) are the same as any of the AR’s that a department shells out $800-1000 for, except they have the happy switch which is normally removed and the 1033 program guns cost @$100 when they’re available.

    Weapons of war? Those have been around since day one, in the hands of everyone. Now we just have pantywaste politicians who are screwing things for everyone.
    Strange, 80 years ago the cops had military surplus Thompsons, BAR’s and more.
    The cops then as now were often vets. And guess what, the same problems existed, people just didn’t whine about it.

    Yup, I volunteered for the job. Put myself in a mess of bad situations, and got hurt for it. But bluntly, going home at the end of the shift was always the goal. I can always catch the crook later, no point dying stupidly.

    #22432
    Profile photo of Tsar Alexander
    Tsar Alexander
    Survivalist
    member4

    While I think police militarization is a series issue in post 9/11 America, I think the media is selectively using it right now to draw away attention from the real kicker–the race issue.

    I mean, where was this media when all this “War on Terror” nonsense was being shoved down our throats? It only counts when black people are hurt then?

    #22439
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    “Those automatic weapons (M-16′s ) are the same as any of the AR’s that a department shells out $800-1000 for, except they have the happy switch which is normally removed and the 1033 program guns cost @$100 when they’re available.”

    I reiterate, I cannot and will not support police obtaining and using weapons of war. Period. And you and I both know it takes more to convert an AR into an M16 than just a selector switch. If I kitted out a “civilian” AR with issue parts from an M16, except for the selector switch, I’d have F-Troop arresting me so fast people would think I dematerialized… You are obfuscating in an attempt to marginalize my point. Too bad I got the same knowledge as you and can backstop my points, proving you wrong.

    “Weapons of war? Those have been around since day one, in the hands of everyone.”

    Because The Framers decided that the terrible weapons of war are the birthright of every American citizen. Not thugs working for, and protected by, other thugs higher up the food chain in Government. And it’s a miracle we still have anything, given the fact that pols and do-gooder ******** have been trying to disarm us since the early 1900’s. And cops – Peelers – didn’t exist in this country until the middle 19th century. We got along JUST FINE without them… they only exist to milk citizens like cows and extort our daily bread from us anyway. I exempt Sheriffs from this, as they are the only law enforcement specifically mentioned in the Constitution…

    “Strange, 80 years ago the cops had military surplus Thompsons, BAR’s and more.”

    And even stranger, how did those cops 80 years ago arrest Bonnie and Clyde? They opened fire on them with fully automatic weapons from cover. It was an ambush – a cold-blooded bushwhack – outright MURDER – and they were assassinated. No day in court. No chance to face their accuser. No “innocent until proven guilty”. No alleged “constitutional protections”… cops behaved then same as now – like murdering ******* thugs.

    And don’t tell me the Fibbies haven’t benefited from almost a century of a Government-sponsored PR campaign. That cross-dressing freak Hoover knew the value of propaganda and used it effectively. The Fibbies have benefited from it so much, their “boy scout” reputation endures, even in the face of such horrifying **** like the AIC’s unconstitutional “shoot to kill” order at Ruby Ridge and Lon Horiuchi blowing Vikki Weaver’s head off, even as she held an infant… not only were they NOT prosecuted, or even fired… they were promoted.

    By the way, the Thompson SMG’s and BAR’s that were sold to various PD’s and the Feds? They were NOT “surplus”. No way in hell were they. They were brand new – made, marketed and sold specifically for and to the PD’s, not “surplus” weapons the Army decided to get rid of…

    “The cops then as now were often vets. And guess what, the same problems existed, people just didn’t whine about it.”

    Hate to say it, but soldiers make shitty cops. One is not the other. Not even CLOSE. The “close with and destroy the enemy” mindset has no place whatsoever in an law enforcement environment. And, same as I said before, putting on a uniform does NOT automatically bestow honor or good manners or knowledge of the law or the Constitution or anything else… There’s PLENTY of dirtbags and thug ******** in uniform. The fact that they have qualified immunity and are protected by a tin star and the DA is bad enough. Kitting them out like the Soviets storming into Budapest? Whose fucking bright idea was THAT?!? They behave like the SA and, according to you, always have…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #22440
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    “The cops then as now were often vets. And guess what, the same problems existed, people just didn’t whine about it.”

    Okay, we’re just a bunch of whiney little *******…

    Please tell us, what are our alternatives? What is the solution, Whirl?

    Let’s say I voice my opinion and dissatisfaction at the current situation and the SturmAbteilung decides to kick their way into my home, throwing bombs along the way, breaking my stuff, shooting my dog, etc, because I have a card game going on, or an unpaid parking ticket, or whatever bullshit reason du sure they can come up with…

    IF I survive, they have “qualified immunity”. They work for thugs higher up on the food chain in the Government – which has unlimited funds and thousands of lawyers. They have Police Unions. They have the ability to manipulate, create and destroy evidence at will… “We cannot release that information because of an ongoing investigation” is just bullshit-speak for “We haven’t finished making him look bad” or “That footage actually makes US look bad, so you’ll never see it”… THEY get to set the narrative, unless a miracle happens – like some bystander happens to actually film the SA bravely throwing bombs into my house and bravely shooting my dog and the footage makes the news, goes viral, and the copthugs end up looking like the lying thug ******** they are…

    Face it. I would have NO CHANCE at all… and if the Government actually loses, well, so what? They have unlimited funds, battalions of lawyers, the backing of the Status Quo… nothing will change. Yeah, I might hit the Ghetto Lottery and get some money – maybe – years down the road – again, maybe – but nothing changes. In fact, it gets even worse.

    So what’s the alternative, Whirl? We cannot petition government for redress of grievances – they ARE the government. We cannot seek justice in court – they have “qualified immunity” and are protected. They get to set the narrative. If anything happens, they throw some money my way – not admitting guilt, just ‘settling’ out of court – but the damage is done. There is no justice.

    “Whining about it”… jesus christ, Whirl.. do you hear yourself?

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #22453
    Profile photo of tweva
    tweva
    Survivalist
    rreallife

    I found this interesting, although I don’t personally normally read The Daily Kos. This caller to a radio station purports to relate what she was told happened from Officer Wilson’s perspective.

    Whether it (the caller’s description) is true or not, the willingness of so many to rush to judgement without all sides being heard, information being collected and presented, which does take some time, amazes me.

    We are so quick to generalize, lay blame, point fingers, judge and react – so divided, so easy to inflame.

    Pretty darn sorry state of affairs. God Bless all our fellow humans that with all good intentions and feeling a call to serve, choose to go out, put on a uniform and become a police officer in this country. Would be especially hard to be continually painted with such big, broad brushes of derision.

    #22454
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    tweva, part of the problem with the public increasingly being distrustful of the police comes from the utter refusal of the law enforcement community to hold their own accountable. No matter how egregious the conduct they rally around in support of their fellow officer. That sends a powerful signal that their 1st priority is something other than enforcing the law and protecting the public. A part of the equation that has changed is the frequency with which someone happens to be there recording the event, and even then the police response is always it isn’t what it looks like. Throw in military gear and tactics and sending SWAT teams in for non-violent offenses committed by people with no history of violence, and often doing so in no-knock raids, and what is the public supposed to think? And when that no-knock SWAT team goes to the wrong house, there isn’t so much of an apology or compensation for the damage done, let alone repercussions for whoever sent them to the wrong house. The law enforcement community cannot be above the law, and sadly the message they are sending the general public is that they are. Personally I believe most police are trying to do the right thing but if they refuse to hold themselves accountable, they will all be painted with the same brush as the bad apples amongst them.

    #22457
    Profile photo of tweva
    tweva
    Survivalist
    rreallife

    Oh I know that MB, but it’s the ‘they’ as in ‘they refuse to hold themselves accountable’, the generalizations, that bothers me, I suppose. Use of generalities like that I think help further divisions and helps distance ourselves from each other and divide us even more. Always easy to point the finger at any number of nameless, nebulous ‘they’s’ Not all police officers are ‘bad cops’. Not all police officers are in any position to DO something about it – except perhaps leave the force. And given where our country is today, what can realistically be done about it? Few American’s appear to take the time to educate themselves, best they may, on the issues of the day, much less take the time to vote or engage in or volunteer in community affairs or go to town hall type meetings or engage with elected leaders in the issues of the day or what needs to be addressed/is of concern. The ‘they’s’ aren’t’ held accountable because ‘we’ don’t do anything about making that happen on a day in, day out basis until something like this blows up in everyone’s faces, emotions run rough shod over common sense and yet another fire is lit. But then we squawk and point the fingers …in this case at every single police officer…but it could be every single politician, etc…

    #22460
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Malgus wrote:</div>“The cops then as now were often vets. And guess what, the same problems existed, people just didn’t whine about it.”

    Okay, we’re just a bunch of whiney little *******…

    No the liberal media and libtards are a bunch of whiney little *******.

    Please tell us, what are our alternatives? What is the solution, Whirl?

    Let’s say I voice my opinion and dissatisfaction at the current situation and the SturmAbteilung decides to kick their way into my home, throwing bombs along the way, breaking my stuff, shooting my dog, etc, because I have a card game going on, or an unpaid parking ticket, or whatever bullshit reason du sure they can come up with…

    IF I survive, they have “qualified immunity”. They work for thugs higher up on the food chain in the Government – which has unlimited funds and thousands of lawyers. They have Police Unions. They have the ability to manipulate, create and destroy evidence at will… “We cannot release that information because of an ongoing investigation” is just bullshit-speak for “We haven’t finished making him look bad” or “That footage actually makes US look bad, so you’ll never see it”… THEY get to set the narrative, unless a miracle happens – like some bystander happens to actually film the SA bravely throwing bombs into my house and bravely shooting my dog and the footage makes the news, goes viral, and the copthugs end up looking like the lying thug ******** they are…

    Face it. I would have NO CHANCE at all… and if the Government actually loses, well, so what? They have unlimited funds, battalions of lawyers, the backing of the Status Quo… nothing will change. Yeah, I might hit the Ghetto Lottery and get some money – maybe – years down the road – again, maybe – but nothing changes. In fact, it gets even worse.

    So what’s the alternative, Whirl? We cannot petition government for redress of grievances – they ARE the government. We cannot seek justice in court – they have “qualified immunity” and are protected. They get to set the narrative. If anything happens, they throw some money my way – not admitting guilt, just ‘settling’ out of court – but the damage is done. There is no justice.

    “Whining about it”… jesus christ, Whirl.. do you hear yourself?

    Bubba, you are blowing up at the wrong target. My message was misread.

    You don’t like the Police having “weapons of war” i.e. Military guns and gear. Okay.
    So let’s make the field even, all civilians (Police are civilians) are forbidden from possessing weapons and gear that are of military design and/or former military weapons. Why not even go so far as to make clones and replicas of military weapons illegal, since many are made with military parts or out of the same parts bins. Once military, always military as the ATF is so fond of saying.

    So that means all Glocks (Austrian military gun), AR-15’s (US and other military gun), Beretta 92’s (US military gun), all 1911’s (US military until the 80’s and some still in use), Mauser 98’s, Moisin-Nagants, AK’s, the list is almost endless including Colt SAA’s and muzzleloader Muskets.

    You and I both know about the 6 parts that are different between the AR and M models, and the bolt carrier doesn’t matter anymore, but those 6 parts are the only real differences beyond a little metal being left in the receiver. The rest of the parts come off the same assembly lines, the same parts bins, the same specifications. Granted, the Colt “Sporter” series uses a different pin size but that doesn’t function or effectiveness.
    That same AR that can be bought at WallyWorld, identical to the M model but for those little parts.

    Sounds like a perfect plan, one thought up by your favorite politicians doesn’t it. It’s a slippery slope, choosing one group of people to limit firearms to. Heck the Klan would love that.

    The cartels are bringing in grenades and we’re giving them AK’s, but we’ll only give the Police bean bag shotguns, got more than one BP agent killed so far, why not more?

    Police should be able to have and use the same guns everyone else can. Simple as that.
    You can buy a full auto M-16, so can they.
    You can buy a grenade launcher, so can they.
    You can buy a cannon, they can’t justify that in the budget and there’s no reason to have one but for fun.

    How about limiting camoflage, or body armor? That ones hitting the rounds again.

    Or why not just allow everyone to be on equal ground?
    Sounds fair to me.

    #22466
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    twee,

    Want to know about the “Us vs. Them” mentality? Head on over to PoliceOne and take a look around. They refer to citizens as “mundanes” in sneering derision.

    “Not all police officers are bad cops”…

    This is simply equivocating. Are 100 percent of them “bad”, all the way down to the very last one? Of course not. I don’t think I could put together a group of 100% “bad” people, even if I hand-picked them one by one from the state penitentiary. So this argument falls flat…

    But I do know that power corrupts and that ultimate power – the power to decide if someone lives or dies – will corrupt absolutely. MB’s used a word I thought about earlier that goes right to the crux of the matter – ACCOUNTABILITY.

    If there is no accountability, no oversight, then there is no check on state (police) power. They literally do what they want. Our Framers knew that power corrupts, so they sought to avoid it wherever possible. There are still those who think that power can be used for good, and that they are immune. After awhile, they think power is inherently good because THEY are the ones who wield it…

    Police officers take on the burden of moral responsibility that comes with the privileges of rank, power and position. But power corrupts, which checks and counters morality. In the military, there is a massive support structure surrounding you and discipline is enforced from outside on the individual. Police must be able to self-discipline, which comes from inside.

    In fact, I would even modify my original “Only psychotics enter politics” theory to include lifelong ‘police officers’… police are taught to lie effectively because it’s legal to lie to a “suspect”. It’s not legal, however, for us to lie to them. The ability to lie smoothly and evenly, not giving a **** about you or your problems, no empathy, narcissistic in the extreme – only caring about themselves – those who enjoy and get off on power and only seek to increase it… this is a pretty good working definition of “Psychopath”…

    Pressure to support “the brotherhood” cows most into silence when something illegal or immoral is discovered. Those who actually do have the moral courage to stand up and point out the culture of corruption – they are excoriated, demonized, shunned… in the case of Las Vegas, it is pretty much an open secret that the police are a wholly owned subsidy of the Cleveland Mob – to include the Coroner’s Office (since they are the ones who decide if a shooting was “justified” or not via a “coroner’s inquest”) and the DA’s office. The last TWO HUNDRED shootings have been found completely “justifiable”…

    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not siding with the looters in Ferguson. I’m saying that there is a culture of corruption in the police, zero accountability of those who do wrong and also the militarization of our police, which will not lead to anything good – in this or any other world…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

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