Viewing 15 posts - 76 through 90 (of 138 total)
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  • #28343
    Profile photo of lester
    lester
    Survivalist
    member1

    Think there is some romanticism here, at least with the .410/.22 and similar vein guns like shotguns and .22 rim fire.

    Ammunition is the big determinant. An AR-15 with heavy 75/77gr bthp match bullets has a lot of power. Sierra Ballistics program shows at 500yds the heaviest mag-length match bullet delivers more power than a .357mag 158gr at 25yds. No tricks on short barrels or other .357 minimizers… Those match bullets might bend like a pretzel when fired into a rock backstop, but they hang together. The long bullet also has decent sectional density for penetration. No contest for weight viability, the .223 heavy is half the weight of a .308 150gr, and with less recoil, easier to shoot with precision. Handload? These rounds are fairly cheap to assemble.

    We can hunt with a .223. Shoot a large animal with a well-placed shot or a few, and you have meat. I question the whole “hunt to survive” concept. Live in a bonafide wilderness up around the Canadian border, maybe you’ll have game to hunt an no other human competitors out in the brush. Not too likely. A .177 pellet gun will do whatever a .22/.410 will do and not make firearm report. SHTF weapon implies self-defense capable. Goes to the Mel Tappan idea of working guns and fighting guns. Fighting gun can work for a hunter, but a working gun like a Browning BAR sporting rifle won’t hold up under continuous firing rigors. Fighting gun, or military pattern weapon, usually more readily repaired in the field and has parts more readily available. Pretty easy to swap a barrel on an AR rifle, not so much on others. Talking barrel swap, not upper-swap. Easy to replace a broken bolt or barrel extension, or any other broken part on the whole gun. 1911 type pistols same way. Garand rifles not so easy…

    Hard to do better than a fixed-sight A2 w/20 7 or 8 twist barrel, especially if chrome-lined quality like a Colt, FN-H, or Armalite, 5″ 1911 in .45acp or 10mm Auto for handgun. If in wilderness, maybe choose the AR-10 in wide range of .308win case variants from .260rem to .358win. Whatever you want in the backwoods; supposedly you will be handloading and casting bullets anyway… Might choose an FN-H Patrol or Police bolt gun in the backwoods. Chrome-lined match barrel. Find one in .300wsm maybe. Then there is the Winchester 70 Classic stainless in .30-06 or a magnum if deep in Canada or Alaska…

    Nice to have a versatile scope and iron sights. Maybe a .22 Conversion kit for your 1911. For sure you have a spare parts kit with ejector, extractor, firing pins, springs and maybe a spare barrel or two. Maye another upper?

    I think you’d best have a year or two of food on-hand so you don’t have to hunt; but always be ready to take game if it appears. That means a real 250yd capable gun and shooter able to make a snapshot from offhand with a sling. Battle Sight Zero works for you in that regard. Handloading gives you all the options with premium bullets in your stash…

    Then there is cleaning gear and gunsmithing tools… Nice to have more than the basics. Coated cleaning rods to keep your barrel from damage. Lots more to it if you are planning.

    Many reasons to choose the AR-15 or an AR-10 type rifle. Not so many, I think, to choose a carbine or M-4.

    #28345
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    A .177 pellet gun will do whatever a .22/.410 will do and not make firearm report.

    Um, no. I can shoot birds on the wing with the .22/.410, not with the .177.
    I can sluice and entire covey of birds on the ground before they rise with the .22/.410, not with the .177.
    I can shoot subsonic ammo out of the .22/.410 that is quieter than the hunting .177 I sold a while back.

    There’s a reason I have 2 .22/.410’s and got rid of the .177. Not as useful, but that’s me.

    working gun like a Browning BAR sporting rifle won’t hold up under continuous firing rigors.

    The FNAR is nothing but a tweaked Browning BAR. And it’s fine for ‘continuous’ firing.
    Better mags on the FNAR however.

    The FN bolt guns are nothing but rebranded Winchester Model 70’s.

    The .223 isn’t legal everywhere for hunting. Here it’s only legal for deer and smaller, and then only with 60+ grain bullets for big game. And from personal experience, I’m still not enamored of the .223 even with heavier bullets.

    Much depends on the circumstance of SHTF.
    Were I in SA like Leopard, I would likely be more concerned with high capacity than large bullets.
    Were I in deepest darkest Alaska, I’d be more concerned with large bullets.

    Everybody’s choices are determined by their circumstance and location.
    People in Pennsylvania can’t hunt with semi-auto rifles/handguns. Leaves much to be desired.

    There is no one answer, one gun or bullet that fits all.
    Sad because we all could have saved a great deal of money over the years trying to find that one.

    #28351
    Profile photo of undeRGRönd
    undeRGRönd
    Survivalist
    member8

    Whirlibird wrote:

    The .223 isn’t legal everywhere for hunting. Here it’s only legal for deer and smaller, and then only with 60+ grain bullets for big game. And from personal experience, I’m still not enamored of the .223 even with heavier bullets.

    Much depends on the circumstance of SHTF.

    Come SHTF, “hunting laws” will matter little. Even if DNR and game wardens are still in operation (doubtful in most scenarios, but let’s assume they are for sake of argument this once) they will be so overworked that most will chance it. Feed your family, or observe some silly caliber requirement and starve. Most will use the .223 I’d think. Just a guess… ;) Most SHTF scenarios involve some degree of WROL

    "ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....

    Cogito, ergo armatus sum

    #28354
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    RGR,
    You would think that all the wardens would stay at home, but I keep buying my hunting license just in case one of them appears.

    #28356
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    “The FNAR is nothing but a tweaked Browning BAR. And it’s fine for ‘continuous’ firing. Better mags on the FNAR however”

    It’s my understanding that the FNAR has an aluminum reciever, the Safari grade BAR uses a steel reciever and is chambered in magnum cartridges. I’ve really have been considering getting one in 300 WM for a long range rifle.
    Whirlybird you don’t happen to know if the BAR & FNAR mags are interchangable?

    #28357
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>undeRGRönd wrote:</div>

    Whirlibird wrote:

    The .223 isn’t legal everywhere for hunting. Here it’s only legal for deer and smaller, and then only with 60+ grain bullets for big game. And from personal experience, I’m still not enamored of the .223 even with heavier bullets.

    Much depends on the circumstance of SHTF.
    E

    Come SHTF, “hunting laws” will matter little. Even if DNR and game wardens are still in operation (doubtful in most scenarios, but let’s assume they are for sake of argument this once) they will be so overworked that most will chance it. Feed your family, or observe some silly caliber requirement and starve. Most will use the .223 I’d think. Just a guess… ;) Most SHTF scenarios involve some degree of WROL

    I have more than a little distrust of a round that the DNR find as barely adequate for deer.
    And personal experience has shown me that the .223 is still a varmint round regardless of bullet.
    I’ve taken a number of critters with the .223 and will continue to do so.
    But when feeding or defending my family is the key, I want larger, to ensure that if I miss by a bit, I still drop what needs killin.

    #28376
    Profile photo of undeRGRönd
    undeRGRönd
    Survivalist
    member8

    I have more than a little distrust of a round that the DNR find as barely adequate for deer.<br>
    And personal experience has shown me that the .223 is still a varmint round regardless of bullet.<br>
    I’ve taken a number of critters with the .223 and will continue to do so.<br>
    But when feeding or defending my family is the key, I want larger, to ensure that if I miss by a bit, I still drop what needs killin.

    100% Agreed, but in this context (and real life ;) ) I believe folks will use what is on hand. I would not pass up a juicy doe just cuz I had an AR shouldered. But I have the other needs covered, as you apparently do.

    Still pondering a 300BLK setup, but it makes no sense until I’m set up for reloading.

    You experiences and expertise really carry a lot of weight, keep giving us your “all else equal” standards!
    I rarely deviate from your guidance, apparently I did my homework as far as actual purchases and my needs :D
    But I bought most of my arsenal pre-SHTF-Schooling, too…

    "ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....

    Cogito, ergo armatus sum

    #28446
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>74 wrote:</div>“The FNAR is nothing but a tweaked Browning BAR. And it’s fine for ‘continuous’ firing. Better mags on the FNAR however”

    It’s my understanding that the FNAR has an aluminum reciever, the Safari grade BAR uses a steel reciever and is chambered in magnum cartridges. I’ve really have been considering getting one in 300 WM for a long range rifle.<br>
    Whirlybird you don’t happen to know if the BAR & FNAR mags are interchangable?

    Sorry, they’re not.
    The FNAR uses a new mag and a mag well adapter that’s added on.
    There’s a number of changes, but under it all, its still a BAR.
    But one torn apart on my bench right now for a camo job.

    #28447
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>undeRGRönd wrote:</div>

    I have more than a little distrust of a round that the DNR find as barely adequate for deer.<br><br>
    And personal experience has shown me that the .223 is still a varmint round regardless of bullet.<br><br>
    I’ve taken a number of critters with the .223 and will continue to do so.<br><br>
    But when feeding or defending my family is the key, I want larger, to ensure that if I miss by a bit, I still drop what needs killin.

    100% Agreed, but in this context (and real life ;) ) I believe folks will use what is on hand. I would not pass up a juicy doe just cuz I had an AR shouldered. But I have the other needs covered, as you apparently do.

    Still pondering a 300BLK setup, but it makes no sense until I’m set up for reloading.

    You experiences and expertise really carry a lot of weight, keep giving us your “all else equal” standards!<br>
    I rarely deviate from your guidance, apparently I did my homework as far as actual purchases and my needs :D<br>
    But I bought most of my arsenal pre-SHTF-Schooling, too…

    Couple of weeks ago, took the kids hunting. Their hunt not mine so I didn’t take a rifle along.

    Of the nearly 100 deer we saw I could have taken all but 3 with my little M4. But I wouldn’t have let the kids try, not enough oomph if they muff the shot.

    Fully half I could have taken with the Glock 30 on my hip had I been inclined.

    Blackout and 6.8 make a lot of sense, we had both on the shelves during the crisis, and the price was stil just $1 a pop, same as good .223.

    Not as cheap as .223 or x39 normally, at least the cheap stuff, what you get in exchange is a fair trade.

    I’m building two 6.8 uppers, one for my M4 and a full size SP1 style retro Vietnam era gun. For the extra punch out of the same package, the ability to hunt larger game with the same gun and matching up with the .270s we already have.

    Going to keep the .223 top for the M4 and build a SP1 upper for the other in .223 also, for cheap practice and emergency use as well as using a .22 conversion unit in.

    #29333
    Profile photo of Vep
    Vep
    Survivalist
    member4

    A .223 is regularly used to drop caribou in the arctic and it’s more than adequate for killing a deer, within it’s range parameters (<250 yards). Some of the hunting bullets they have for the .223 are superb. I find it interesting how many people call it a ‘mouse gun’ with over 1200 ft/lbs of energy while the same crowd often talks about the .45ACP with about 1/3 of that power like it’s a death ray. The .223 is legal for deer hunting in 36 of the 43 states which allow high velocity centerfire rifle calibers for large game hunting.

    I don’t use .223 nowadays for large game hunting because I’ve consolidated my ammo calibers down to a minimum. In this heavily wooded, coastal area, .223 doesn’t really offer me any real range advantages for hunting over a scoped, rifled 12ga barrel with sabot slugs, which itself with modern barrels and ammo has a 200 yard reach. A .50 sabot round out of a 12ga has ballistics similar to a .45-70. Even a 200 yard shot here is rare and often a homemade, cast lead Lee slug fired out of a smoothbore is more than adequate.

    A .22LR is a seriously underestimated caliber in what it can do and it’s one of the few calibers I have kept in inventory. However, for much of what it does it’s often overkill. For much of what a .22LR is used for, a good air rifle can often do the job as well at a fraction of the cost. An air rifle is also safer for anything in the neighborhood when firing up at targets in a tree. An air rifle is also not a firearm in most of the USA and can often be legally fired within city limits. My preference is for a .22 caliber air rifle that does at least 800fps. An el-cheapo .177 Daisy 880 from Walmart is still more than adequate for squirrels and it can kill a possum, plus it’s very quiet. The Crosman Destroyer EX pellets from Walmart are excellent.

    All said and done, there isn’t much that you can’t get done with a 12ga pump shotgun and an air rifle. Earlier in the thread it was talked about the .410 shotgun. With a $25 drop in adapter, a 12ga pump shotgun can be used as a .410 single shot. Adapters can also be had in other gauges and calibers like 20ga. I keep a .410, a 20ga, a rifled .22LR, and one in my primary handgun caliber.

    The 2-3/4″ rifled .22LR from GaugeMate works in a pump (the 2-3/4″ ShortLane rifled .22LR won’t due to bore offset). It’s not a replacement for a scoped Ruger 10/22, but it’s ‘minute of rabbit’, so it’s adequate for what it’s needed for. It’s accurate enough to consistently knock around a tennis ball at 25 yards. Don’t even bother with the .22LR adapters that are smoothbore.

    All in all, the 12ga is the most versatile shotgun gauge, and it’s the cheapest due to scale of economy in manufacture. It’s also very easy to reload 12ga, and even make the components for it if need be. A 12ga shotgun is also one of the only modern firearms where you don’t lose much performance if you have to reload your shells with blackpowder.

    A 12ga is about as efficient with modern smokeless powder as a .223 but operates with 1/2 the chamber pressure of a .22LR. Many of the powders you can use for reloading shotgun shells are dual use, which means you can also reload your handgun ammo with them.

    A shotgun is the one weapon who’s ballistic characteristics changes dramatically with a change in ammo load. With a change of ammo you can go from harvesting birds and rabbits to dropping a deer or defending yourself.

    Barrel length isn’t that relevant with a shotgun since most of a load’s velocity is gained in the first 10 to 14 inches of barrel. Changing your chokes and having adequate sights matters more. A good, tight choke, like a full or an extra-full (turkey) choke, allows for usable buckshot patterns much further out than a cylinder bore choke does.

    #29340
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    Here ya go !!!!! save your ammo for hunting small game , with this thing all you need is a rock .

    you should check out this guys youtube channel , he has some crazy sh*t , I think he is a little off . Reminds me of a James Bond movie villain , especially when he laughs .

    #34812
    Profile photo of tzizh
    tzizh
    Survivalist
    member2

    Moose are not hard to approach closely, and they offer so much meat that you are unlikely to need to shoot more than 2 per year, even for a large family. Animals are territorial. This means that when you actually live out there with them, you will get many chances to harvest the same animal Also, moose, elk and bears are not hard to foot snare to a drag log, making their dispatch easy, even with a mere bow and arrow. The 223 will brain them from up to 100 yds away and then they drop like rocks. No point in worsening your situation (vs men, the much greater threat) by using the 308.

    What you want is a shorty AR15 in 223, with a .22lr conversion unit and 223 sound suppressor, with luminous night sight inserts. . Whenever possible, use the .22 unit, cause 308’s are 18 rds to the lb. 223’s are 35 rds to the lb, and 60 gr Aquila subsonic 22’s are 100 rds to the lb. The Aquilas are BB gun quiet thru the 223 silencer and .22 conversion unit. Lots of youtube videos about such conversion units and silencers, guys.

    With a 2×7 Leupold Compact scope, free float tube, trigger job and see thru mount, you can snipe effectively to 1/4 mile with the 11.5″ AR, using 69 gr sierra bthp loads, which can be 2500 fps, Zero the scope at 300 yds, aim at the top of the head at 1/4 mile and bullets strike the guts of a man. at 350-400 yds, aim at the high chest or neck. at shorter ranges, use the iron sights. I zero the “long range” wing of the peep sight at 200 yds, and I zero the normal range (luminous) wing at 50 yds, with the 60 gr subsonic .22 ammo. I do this by cutting a v notch into the top of the peep sight, arranging “ears’ made of JB weld epoxy, blacken the sight with magic marker. I file the notch to zero the sight, you see. Normal .22lr ammo hits close enough to this zero for snap shooting practice. So does 223, for speed shooting. the open sight is much faster to use than the normal peep sight. If I need real long range accuracy, I ‘ll have the time to flip up the other wing of the sight. the v notch is close enough for 200 yd torso accuracy.

    carry the gun in 223 “mode”, cause if you need it swiftly, you’re likely to need more power than the 22 unit offers. The 7.5″ of length added by the silencer, makes the barrel 19″ long, still very handy. the rifle breaks down in 5 seconds, to conceal in a pack, and reassembles in 10 seconds to fire. the caliber conversion takes just 20 seconds. google ciener .22 units, this one costs $200, with a 30 rd box mag.

    #34814
    Profile photo of tzizh
    tzizh
    Survivalist
    member2

    So, 6 lb rifle, 3/4 lb each for the silencer and .22 unit, 1 lb for the scope and mount, 1/4 lb for the forend- mounted bipod, 1 lb each for the 30 rd 223 mags, 1/2 lb each for the (2) 30 rd mags for the .22. The silencer, (along with being sneaky and avoiding open terrain in daylight) means you’ll need little ammo. The silencer renders the .22 inaudible at 50 yds, if you let the bolt cycle, at 50 ft if you lock the bolt forward.. It renders the 223 audible to only 1.2 mile, instead of 2 miles, and makes it sound just like a .22lr rifle with normal ammo. i’ve fired it out of the back of my van, without ear protection, using full power 223 ammo. The “can” renders the 223 so “tame” that .22 unit snapshooting practice really does=223 skill (with the can in place). so you save 30c per shot, paying for the $200 tax on the silencer very quickly, and paying for the $100 needed to have local shops make your silencer for you (along with a day’s work of your own). No need of a $1000 silencer, guys, and no reason to fire lots of rds thru it, either.

    Why scare off game and call in your killers with noisy shots? Put the necessary 10″ of can on a 20″ 308 barrel, and you’ll have a “bipod-only’ slow handling clunker, and it’s just not necessary to handicap yourself like that. Put 60 gr Nosler Partition softpoints in the shorty AR, and it will do anything that the 30-30 ever did, you can count on that. What good is a rifle at night, without sights that help you hit with it? Luminous sights are available for only a very few models of longarms, guys. Flash at night destroys your night-adapted vision for several minutes, and it gives your enemies a good aiming point, too. With the silencer in place, you have zero flash from the shorty 223.

    #34815
    Profile photo of tzizh
    tzizh
    Survivalist
    member2

    I use a pocket 9 for EDC, in front pants pocket holster. I favor the same for shtf. I’m not bothering with something different for shtf. the pistol means very little once everyone is carrying a longarm. the front pants pocket holster keeps the pistol out of the way of the rifle and the pack, accessible, out of sight, out of the debris. the gun weighs less than a lb, I carry just one spare mag, so the total for the handgun is 1.5 lbs. the total for the rilfe stuff, including cleaning kit and a spare bolt-parts, is 12 lbs. By the time I fire even half of my rds, there will be plenty of guns and ammo to pick up from the dead, so why burden myself with more ammo? What matters is sneakily hitting, and then vanishing, not how many noisy rds you can miss with, before you get shot.

    #34817
    Profile photo of tzizh
    tzizh
    Survivalist
    member2

    at night, the silenced, subsonic .22, paired with NVD goggles, lets you quietly remove sentries to 100 yds, guard dogs to more like 50 yds (they move more and their brains are smaller). Being able to quietly drop the sentry can mean that you can put a silenced bullet into a dozen sleeping bags and vanish before the enemy knows what’s happened, A dozen casulties is enough to make the remaining 20 or so consider your AO to be far, far too “hot” to be worth hanging around. Larger looting bands won’t be able to sustain themselves, because the loot won’t be that large, easy or commonplace.

    Too heavy a BOB means that you’ll just sprain an ankle the first time that you have to flee with it. Then it’s all over but the crying and all your gear will shortly belong to your killer. Keep it under 40 lbs, or pay the price. You’ve got to figure on a 3 lb pack, 6 lbs of water, and 12 lbs of other survival gear, plus 5 lbs of concealable armor. That does not leave a lot for guns and ammo gear, and food, ya know! If you drop your kit every time that you have to fight, the odds are that y ou’ll never see it again. You wo’nt have any help, nor any safe base to be choppered back to, you know. so your tactics can’t be those of our military. there will be no supply sergaent to replace the geat that you abandoned.

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