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  • #5313
    Profile photo of JerseyOutlaw
    JerseyOutlaw
    Survivalist
    member2

    A lot of great info here!! A couple more things to ponder. Sex sells but KISS Kills! In my Police/Swat background, we were always in search of the best ways. Simplicity is always best, and that needs to include mobility. Cops were/are some of the worst offenders of simplicity, with gadget loaded guns, way over-powered scopes or unnecessary optics-but that sh!t sure looked cool. If you are lucky to be able to remain in one area while SHTF, then those .308’s and .45’s are great…but if you have to move, then you’ll see why the military went from .308 to 5.56 way back when. Same with handguns/anyguns, take a test to weigh out what you’d want to have for SHTF, just guns and ammo, then make a pack of similar weight and go for a nice long hike, with the weight strapped around your waist and on your back. Please don’t go hiking around your neighborhood with guns and ammo to see how it feels…people are freaky.

    Next is the total myth of stopping power. Forget that term forever, Please! What matters is where you hit someone, and it has to be in a critical location, head/vital organs, no matter what bullet size. You have to train to hit critical locations. One close range exercise we did was mozambique drills, two to the body, then one to the head. There’s a lot more but that is great for control and you won’t need a lot of ammo.

    Like my intro to this forum, Beware the one gun man. Your SHTF weapon should be part of you. Know it inside and out, be an accurate target and stress shooter and for that YOU have to be comfortable with it! Any fact that the weapon(s) you choose are widely available, for repairable parts, and a common ammo, will only be a benefit. Know the basics of shooting and work to retain those skills as they are perishable.

    And get to know your gear. Holsters, mag holders, slings, etc. Understand if you are using a concealable handgun holster, you will need more time to get your muzzle to target than an open carry. That means practice…. Practice reloads…. As for rifle slings, after using a bunch, the best turned out to be an adjustable two point sling from Viking Tactical(Vtac). That should do for now. Thanks, Steve

    #5316
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Steve,

    Back in The Before Time, we would practice failsafe drills… two to the body, one to the head. We also practiced hitting the ‘pelvic girdle’. In other words, when a bad guy is wearing body armor, shooting him center mass is only going to piss him off.

    But if you hit him a couple times in the pelvis, he is going to go down. Body armor does not cover the pelvis (unless the bad guy is wearing a bomb disposal suit), and hitting a bad guy in the pelvis or hip joints with a couple high-velocity well aimed shots will shatter the bones, rendering him prone and pretty much out of the fight. If your aim is off and you end up shooting him in the junk, well.. he shouldn’t have been messing with you anyways.. :)

    Armor is also vulnerable at the neck and shoulders, especially to oblique or side-on shots.

    ANY part you can see of your opponent is fair game. If all you can see is his foot, then shoot him in the foot. Might not put him totally out of the fight, but it will cripple him and cause his aim to be off… often, bad guys would take cover behind vehicles. Which works only so long as your opponent doesn’t realize that he can bounce bullets under the vehicle. The bullets hit the pavement and fragment, the wound patterns resembling a shotgun wound. It is effective.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #5416
    Profile photo of JerseyOutlaw
    JerseyOutlaw
    Survivalist
    member2

    Thanks Malgus!

    I can only ask you and anyone else to not train for or accept the Pelvic Girdle myth. Compare the evidence out there on head vs. pelvic girdle shots…the head wins everytime, and I’ve never found anything where the PG shot did anything. Even if a PG shot worked, and the bad guy fell, they just fell and are still very much a threat. At the FBI Instructor school I attended in the 90’s, the old school instructor swore by the PG shot but couldn’t give me any evidence other than saying it would drop someone like a sack of potatoes. This same instructor taught that just the racking of a pump shotgun would send bad guys running in fear…come on man!! And Ayoob lists one of his reasons going for the PG shot is when the bad guy sees you aiming at his groin area, he will be negatively psychologically affected…another, come on man!! There’s so much fluff and BS out there in the world of guns. Don’t just take someone’s word on something, not even my word. Go out and try it! Don’t literally shoot someone in the PG area, but our team did things like sim training gunfights going for heads and groins, and the head shots showed more hits by trained guys. Two quick shots to the body, and the bad guy is still standing means they are tough, you didn’t hit the right spots and/or they may have a vest on…then aim for the head and game over as long as you hit the eyes/nose, ear to the side area.
    Next on ricochet, are ballistic properties on what MOST rounds do after hitting a hard surface on an angle. The ATF/FBI found out first hand, and lend credibility to what these rounds do. Those agents were hiding behind cars and where hit in the ankles, not by aimed shots. A ricochet hits the surface at an angle, retains most of it’s mass, lifts back up approx six inches and flies straight until hitting something or falling. You could forecast that unloading an automatic rifle toward the ground in front of a vehicle with people hiding behind it, could potentially hit those hiding people in the ankles…it’s been done, but I wouldn’t waste the ammo. And your chances of aiming for an ankle/foot, and hitting, are quite unlikely and more lucky, but is possible by a highly trained gun guy like the North Hollywood bank shootout.
    I’m old school, like you Malgus, and have taken everything taught and said to me over the years and tried it out in training. I was taught the Weaver in the late 80’s, and found out quickly that is NOT a gun-fighting shooting position. Keep educating! Steve

    #5417
    Profile photo of JerseyOutlaw
    JerseyOutlaw
    Survivalist
    member2

    And Mr. Fackler is quite a respected guy….

    Martin Fackler had this to say in the Wound Ballistics Review. 4(1):13; 1999.

    “Shots to the Pelvic Area “.

    “I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:

    From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.

    The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels — they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.

    Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.

    The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) — thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.

    Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”

    #5430
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    One thing if it came down to it , Maiming is a legitimate strategy , Armored ? ok , how about you make the brownshirt loose an arm or better yet , a leg ..Permanently , ….that does 3 things , it takes him out of the fight ( and future fights ) it slows the others down , having to take care of him , he is a walking billboard to what can happen to his peers , I say if you cant get passed the body armor , you make a point when possible to make sure they loose an arm or leg . With soft point hunting rounds or hollow points , may blow up a knee beyond repair = desk jockey from that point on , or burden to their system , either way , wounds demoralize , and inflicting bad moral can be more powerful than any bullet . groin and reproductive is good also , they may live , but they will not like it .

    #5435
    Selco
    Selco
    Survivalist
    member6

    Next is the total myth of stopping power. Forget that term forever, Please! What matters is where you hit someone, and it has to be in a critical location, head/vital organs, no matter what bullet size. You have to train to hit critical locations. One close range exercise we did was mozambique drills, two to the body, then one to the head. There’s a lot more but that is great for control and you won’t need a lot of ammo.

    Thanks JerseyOutlaw, too much is written and said about stopping power, it is simply confusing, and even worst it can mislead people without experience.

    #5441
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Another thought.

    In a previous post, it was said think like a soldier, I disagree.

    Why? A soldier has the backup of many other soldiers, an armory (gun breaks, get new gun), and a supply line. Armored vehicles, body armor, almost limitless ammo with supply drops.

    A survivalists, we don’t have those luxuries. One of my friends is currently a SF medic and we’ve gone round and round on this. He finally grasped it when I asked, where are the rest of your guys right now? Where are your supplies? Where is your backup?

    Think like a poacher.
    Someone who alone or small groups sneaks, slithers and takes what they need. The firearms are normally light, of decent power and compact.

    What they also are is nondescript.
    You are seeing more AR platform guns, even with the normal hunting crowd which is a good thing. It opens up a lot of options where once was only suspicion.

    One of my customers recently had me switch his AR from 5.56 to the .300 Blackout cartridge. It’s now legal for big game, has a lot more punch for defensive use and by changing ammo and his gas setting has a much quieter option.
    Yes he has to buy more expensive ammo (not that much more though), or roll your own. He went with both options, buying some and converting a mess of his fired 5.56 cases.

    We have looked at the AK platform but it’s lack of adaptability, non modular design and lack of common parts make it a lesser choice. Especially when an AR can be built for a similar price today.

    Versatility is the key here. My FAL can do things that no small bore AR or AK can do. From defense to hunting, to the use of custom rounds it just works where others fail.

    Look carefully at what you choose, all the uses, all the options. Were I in a place where hunting and scrounging weren’t commonplace, my choices would likely be different. But not how I choose them.

    #5493
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Jersey,

    Respect to you, one old school shooter to another.

    The fact that I cited us practicing the PG drill in the late 90’s does not mean that that would be the first thing I tried for. I am well aware that a round to the coconut is pretty much a game-ender.

    So you have an idea of my skill set, I will flesh in some of the details I was passing over on purpose. I tend to like anonymity, but I will be as specific as I can without actually releasing my DD214 or home address and phone number…

    I ended up in a protective services detachment in Europe for a few years. Not going to say who our principal was. We cross-trained with 1/10th SF out of Panzer Kaserne and their German counterparts, the KSK, on a regular basis. We didn’t have a specific budget for ammo – it was pretty much open-ended. If we needed more ammo for some reason, our principal signed off on it and it happened. If we weren’t working a detail, at some school or at home, we were shooting. Even though I was Army, I went though Target Interdiction at a certain Marine facility in Virginia. I’ve been in my share of funhouses and have used sims. The Secret Squirrel gig was mostly mind-numbing, soul crushing boredom, but we did have the opportunity to go through some fairly high-speed schools and play with some nice toys. After I separated, I kept up my skill set with the long gun – still do.

    First thing I did after separation was head West to attend ‘smithy school for a few years to learn how to build rifles – good ones. The only thing I can’t do is actually cut the rifling in a barrel. Other than that, if I can think of it, I can make it. I also roll my own ammo. I’m guessing that you have a pedigree similar to mine.

    All that said, if I can see you – any part of you – then I will hit you. Shooting a bad guy anywhere other than center mass or in the coconut will have an effect on him. Like I said before, it might not take him completely out of the fight, but I’m not going to pass up a doable shot by waiting on the ‘perfect’ shot…

    As far as the PG “myth” is concerned, I thank you for the info. All that is probably post-2000, which is when I separated, and frankly I didn’t really keep up with that side of the house… I’ll stick to failsafe drills. A controlled pair to center mass and one in the coconut… lather, rinse, repeat as necessary.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #5499
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Steve,

    You mentioned slings in a previous post.

    As for rifle slings, after using a bunch, the best turned out to be an adjustable two point sling from Viking Tactical(Vtac)

    I am unfamiliar with this particular sling. I have always favored the old M1907 sling. “Slinging up” and locking yourself into it does add a measure of stability to your shooting, especially offhand. Have you ever practiced using the ’07 sling? With practice, you can go from regular configuration to ‘locked in’ in about 15 seconds.

    Just because it’s old (like us :) ) and there’s other high speed stuff around doesn’t mean it’s not useful…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #5525
    Profile photo of JerseyOutlaw
    JerseyOutlaw
    Survivalist
    member2

    Thank you Malgus, and my respect to you! I’m lucky to have had an incredible career as an officer, and am lucky to still teach to great people! Out of everything I’ve learned, I always go back to basics and try to get that out to everyone.

    Here’s the link to the Viking Sling. Just the original, because their company has grown, along with their product line.
    This is a two point sling, and mount with a half twist, so you can get into a hasty sling position and the sling will stay flat across the back of your hand. Viking Tactics shows the way they use it in this vid, but we adapted it more for a tight carry diagonally on the back and muzzle down, velcro strapped to our belt. That way it didn’t move or make a sound and we could run fast and far. When getting to target, just swing it around and use the hasty position, not the way they use it around their back. That way, or a three-point sling which effectively ties the rifle to you can be very dangerous in a close combat situation.

    The M1907 is an awesome, old school, incredibly durable sling that I’ve used on a Garand. Loved it, but after using the Vtac, I am spoiled.

    Thanks Selco, I try to get people away from confusing, useless terms. And you have some good points of thought, Whirlibird.

    #5527
    Profile photo of JerseyOutlaw
    JerseyOutlaw
    Survivalist
    member2

    http://www.VikingTactics.com/product-p/vtac-mk1.htm

    Ok, so I’m still trying to get the hang of attaching links. It didn’t work on my last post. Hope this works. :)

    #6250
    Breathial
    Breathial
    Survivalist
    member3

    Next is the total myth of stopping power. Forget that term forever, Please!

    Any cop or ER doc or whatever can pull plenty of anecdotal evidence out their ass, and it doesn’t mean anything. In my line of work, the expression is “without data, you’re just another person with an opinion.” And this is the most interesting study I’ve seen yet, with some very interesting conclusions. The researcher is also quite upfront about the limitations of the data available (ammo types for example) and low data points for more unusual weapon calibers (such as .44Mag). Some of his conclusions make perfect sense to me, others are counterintuitive (yet supported by the data).

    http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

    #6409
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    It is interesting reading everyone’s posts about their personal selection and how they arrived with what they have. I’ve been hunting, shooting and reloading for over thirty years, all of it recreational. As most gun owners I bought sold and traded all kinds of guns(some you wish you never ever traded like the S&W 27 in Nickle), but never really with the shtf in mind. So I have rifles and shotguns for hunting, and sporting clays, 22lr pistols for the kids (well the kids are all grown up now), a 10/22. Some single shot 22’s for the kids.

    Always had a hankering for revolvers
    M60-4 S&W 38 J frame 3″ with adjustable sights for concealed carry.
    Ruger Security Six 357 2 3/4
    Firestar 40 S&W for concealed carry.
    Browning BDM 9mm
    Walther P99 40S&W

    M77 Ruger .243 with 3X9
    M96 Mauser sporterized 6.5×55 with a 4x Leopold
    AK 47 5.56 with Eotech or 1.5 x6
    C93 hk clone 5.56 with a 1.5×6

    Remington 1100 12
    Mossberg M500 12

    #13187
    Frozenthunderbolt
    Frozenthunderbolt
    Survivalist
    member4

    MBR is a russian SKS. With iron sights i’m 6 inches at 200M (and can use stripper clips), also have a dust jacket with scopemounts and a shell deflector welded on (means i’m limited to the 5 shot internal mag) that gives me good to go ability to 400m which is about the limit of my training and the rifle.
    Recoil is light enough I stay accurate over many shots + my wife can shoot it + it is almost as rugged as the AK (IMHO).

    12 ga – mosberg 500 pump. Wide range of ammo

    Assorted .22lr’s. My favorite is marlin semi-auto with a 10 shot under-barrel tube mag. With a laser dot sight this is also the rifle i would choose to give to someone who knows nothing – light, no recoil, and ability to put a decent weight of lead on a target in a short length of time.

    A nice 30-06 bolt action that is more accurate than I am. I’m working on overcoming my gun shy with this. I should be able to get out to 750-800M with it, but may need to upgrade my scope. I’m also considering selling it, and getting a 223 bolt action to set up as a mid-range ‘sniper’ instead as I think I’m likely to be more accurate with a lighter recoil.

    If i could only take one with me it would be the SKS.

    #13208
    Profile photo of JerseyOutlaw
    JerseyOutlaw
    Survivalist
    member2

    That’s a great article and study you posted, Breathial!!

    I’ll jump to quote the author’s last sentence before his conclusion, “No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!” – See more at: http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power#sthash.I3IhA1Ou.dpuf</span&gt;

    And here’s my second paragraph from above, Next is the total myth of stopping power. Forget that term forever, Please! What matters is where you hit someone, and it has to be in a critical location, head/vital organs, no matter what bullet size. You have to train to hit critical locations. One close range exercise we did was mozambique drills, two to the body, then one to the head. There’s a lot more but that is great for control and you won’t need a lot of ammo.

    So you can see why I believe he wrote an honest article/study!!

    Steve

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