October 17, 2014 at 3:30 am #27217
first 15 minutes, squad play, peeling, cover fire etc.
last 15 minutes, hit and run tactics.
yes its simulation. but so is all training.
Never be afraid to do the righteous thing, nothing righteous is ever easy.October 17, 2014 at 5:04 am #27221
Several things come to mind. I will not say most.
And that’s not a simulation, that’s a video game.
Having trained on everything from an old Hogans Alley, the FATs system, up to the moderm simulators, I will say that the video games are worth less than zero in real life.
For the price of one of those games and gaming units, one can get a decent airsoft gun and get some realistic practice and training.October 17, 2014 at 5:23 am #27224
Thats to bad you feel that way whirlibird. One of the first things I learned growing up with FPS is slicing the pie. I hope you reconsider your position. Pardon the pun.
These players that I showed here are a mix of randoms and combat vets, practicing conventional military tactics and strats with radios only. Everything down to the radio communications requires that a player go through a boot camp before entering the community. Pilots need to be trained, because this is an army simulator, before they are allowed to fly missions. They practice chain of command, among other things, but only rarely include an air element (game ends to quickly).
Flight simulators are video games too… they just have much more expensive chairs. And yes, nothing counts as much as experience, things like adrenaline and tunnel vision can only be experienced in real life.
Ive considered writing a post on the lessons ive learned from FPS in general. But I am rather turned off by the idea.
One of the greatest things I have learned from observing
airsoft matches, was keeping a tight profile and tucking the elbow in. Something I have only noticed the pro’s do, and of coarse swat team entrys. (which by the way shack tak trains its members to do. Very tight community. Serious fun)
In this video I was especially impressed with the discipline involved in the first 15 minutes with the peel maneuver. And later with the hit and run tactics of the last remaining squad member, who knew damn well he was facing a full squad. HMG 3x riflemen, medic, and CO. Turned out to be a squad and left overs.
*edit* HMG not MMG lol.
Never be afraid to do the righteous thing, nothing righteous is ever easy.October 17, 2014 at 6:11 am #27228
Plenty of real life combat to observe, if anyones ever interested… Both sides are usually video recording these days. Mind you… Stick to the pro american videos tho… if you click on a syria vrs FSA video, according to the news report I saw you might be a terrorist.
Never be afraid to do the righteous thing, nothing righteous is ever easy.October 17, 2014 at 8:55 am #27234
I know I am tripple posting this post, sorry.
Whirlibird I was reflecting on this post a little, and remembered when I was researching drones here last week, that all current drone pilots have zero experience in real air craft.
The reasoning behind this, as the creators of the cpu systems found out, was that pilots had their cups full already, and could not adapt to flying in a box car half way around the world. They keep crashing.
The creators of the drone’s found out surprisingly, that if they put someone with zero experience flying real aircraft into the seat, that they had no trouble adapting, and soon became adept at the flight controls.
Now I am not using this as an argument point. I am pretty choked that 95% of the 45 y/o + crowd completely dismiss computers, competitive games and stratagem as 100% useless. I don’t argue with the olds anymore on this topic, it is an uphill battle.
I just felt slighted by your comment, I am very passionate about FPS (obviously). My original post was not meant to imply that it is satisfactory combat training, it is not, it is dying training. I have only two perfect games under my belt in all my life. 31/0 kd ratio and 30/0. That score relied 100% on my ability to remember a map, and all the best firing positions. Lots of youngs, say that hand eye co ordination is the main argument for video games, most people regard that as bullshit. But… target acquisition, identification, and waiting for the beed to be where you want it to pull the trigger… are all hand eye… wether games improve that or not, is debatable. The only thing we know 100% about the topic is that age 14 and younger are faster at pulling the trigger after acquiring a target, and the older you get… the slower the synapses fire. (its in milliseconds tho, and they where all fully rested etc…)
*edit Target identification did improve dramatically with games that copy those pop up courses with hostages LE and Military use. Not sure what you guys call them. But since friendly fire is such a large concern in real life, I felt I should throw that in as well. This is not an argument point tho, there is a big reason 95% of FPS have no friendly fire on… most people suck at it and TK. So since it is never turned on, they never learn to acquire and identify properly.
As happy as it would make me for you to, reconsider your opinion on video games being less than worth less, I would be satisfied If anything I have written in this post could move you to in the very least give it a value equivalent to an army manual, thats you know… little above zero… as the vets will be chuckling. I’ve read a few, there a joke really.
And, just to be a dink, I am going to throw this video in as well. It is one of the most disturbing things I have ever seen in a video game, not because its gore, not because its violent… but because someone intentionally put the player in the role of mass murderer. Gotta wonder how many sick bastards out there pulled the trigger… I didn’t…
(this is the russian false flag attack that was blamed on america and started the ball rolling towards ww3 in this COD game, tho I would say the coolest scene was when an american defector hijacked a sub and det a warhead over america causing an emp, so… teaching kids about emp, and russian false flags *golf clap*)
Never be afraid to do the righteous thing, nothing righteous is ever easy.October 17, 2014 at 10:43 am #27242
The simulators that the military uses are nothing more than advanced video games. KOS this looks like Arma, my son plays that one.October 17, 2014 at 11:35 am #27248
Agrre with 74 and Whirlibird on this.October 17, 2014 at 12:00 pm #27251
Don’t be bothered by other peoples responses on the forum, There will never be 100% agreement on any issue. Your opinion is just as valid as anyone else’s as it applies to you. Games can be valid training for decision making and tactical situations that could never be run live for obvious reasons. The US Army developed a game just to entice recruits and pre-train them before entry into the service. The game was call America’s Army. They obviously can’t replace a live training event, and a training can’t replicate real events. If a game teaches you to make tactical reloads when you have the opportunity, rather than run dry with 3 rounds in a fire fight you learned something valuable from the game.October 17, 2014 at 9:50 pm #27312
Difference of opinion and diversity, I believe anyway, are a human strength. And I can respect another man/womans opinion, but that doesnt mean I wont challenge it. When people challenge my opinion on something I tend to listen to the argument, because I am not infallible.
It was the arma 3 engine. day z was the arma 2 engine, best anarchy sim Ive ever played, learned a lot about human psychology in that one, people actually follow game trails of a sort through the citys. When I figured out the path of least resistance was the one being taken by 60% of the day z population, it made it really easy to set up traps and ambushes, and that in turn made it easier to figure out where the snipers prefer to hide.
99% of all fighting in day z was ambush and positional warfare. It was almost never a head on fight squad vrs squad, probably because you only had one life. I think that the head on battles are a military thing because they have medi vac and field surgical units, they gain time for casualties with direct assaults.
If id never played them, id never know how to properly peel, properly bound, etc… and since I am poor as a church mouse (no income in over two years now) vid games and the net have been my only learning tool.
*shrug* like I said I felt a bit slighted, I have clocked over 20k hours probably in the last 20 years on fps of all manner.
The things i do not like about them, is that they do not have bullet drop, (except for arma 2, which made me learn the math formula for calculating distance without a range finder, bullet drop etc… tho I wish they would add in windg.
I thought it was cool that you had to figure out your elevation to the target in arma 2 as well. Shooting from a higher position than your target apparently has its own quirks.
Never be afraid to do the righteous thing, nothing righteous is ever easy.October 17, 2014 at 10:42 pm #27315
My dislike of the ‘games’ comes from being a firearms instructor and former LE instructor and too many bad experiences. I am not adverse to positive advances and technology, but they have to be positive.
I have people in classes regularly whose entire experience with firearms comes from video games and when the clerk handed the gun over the counter and said ‘don’t shoot yourself in the eye’.
What the game doesn’t give is practical experience, handling and actually using.
Not rubbing the butt of your holstered handgun on the wall as you creep down it.
Not leaving the gun barrel below cover/obstructions when trying to shoot an AR/AK and only clearing the sights not the muzzle.
And I can’t say how many times I get ‘muzzled’ by gamer students in comparison.
Hand eye coordination is one thing, but which is better, video games or baseball?
Much like the pilot who ‘feels’ his way through the sky, there is a difference between the two versions of life, real and virtual.
My son plays a number of these games.
Hunting games especially.
But when out last weekend, life was different than the game.
The noise, the recoil, the weight of the rifle, actually carrying, operating and loading the gun.
He’s shot before, but putting it all together in the field was completely different than he had “practiced” for in the games. No push button reloads, no switching from iron sights to scope instantly, the animals actually running away. And actual bullet drop at extended ranges. It’s not a phaser that shoots both speed of light and without trajectory.
Same son, different day.
At the range with a 1911, loading, drawing, shooting, moving to cover and more.
Because it was the only way he’d done it, in real life, there was no games issues.
And he out-shot several adults from a recent class.
Same for some LEO’s I got to work with, kids just out of college who spent time on their Xbox’s and such during their off hours. One kid was literally checking the ground for loaded magazines while doing a drill.
Slight subject change:
Certain methods and styles of manipulation are over done such as tactical reloads.
Yes I said it. (So has Clint Smith)
Tactical reloading is nothing that needs to be done fast or out in the open.
Especially when ones all adrenalined up, tunnel vision, hands shaking, ho chi mihn sandals going flippety flop because someone just made you shoot them. This is not a time to be trying to perform critical motions and movements. Gross motor skills are the key here.
Here’s the thought, you have a working gun, that’s got ammo left in it, it can still save your life.
Are you ready to break the gun, open it and remove parts i.e. the magazine or open the cylinder and leave it non-functional while your life is still in danger? I’ve seen highly practiced, highly paid/trophied and trained shooters, mess up and put a partial mag back in when tactical reloading. I’ve seen wheelguns made nonoperational when several grains of unburnt powder kept the ejector star from re-seating and leaving the shooter with a non working gun until a toothbrush was found.
Running dry isn’t the end of the world, it just means you are in a good fight. And it’s an easier reload.
You don’t carry high capacity magazines because you want to shoot a lot, you carry them so you manipulate the gun less.October 17, 2014 at 11:19 pm #27319
agree on all points whirlibird. Ima dive through your posts a bit more because i had no idea that un spent grains of powder could do that. You would think they would cover that kind of thing in the fire arms course i took for my license, tho im sure they just wanted my face and address… one of the most uncomfortable things they made me do was look down the barrel in that course… was the opposite of everything id ever been taught by my father.
One of the big things i spent time practicing in the bush this last year was combat loading the shotgun after all five shells where spent. I called it my bear drill. Shotgun is slung on the shoulder, right hand grabs the stock, throws to shoulder, rack, four shots out, buck, slug, buck, slug, pause check, slug, open breach load, chamber, pause check. Trying to build a good habit with the twelve gauge.
On the topic of combat and reloading, thats a big afirm from me, in vid games people have a bad habit of reloading when they have fired half a clip. Thats usually when i zip around the corner and capitalize on the reloading sounds I hear. In real life I would never do that, both sides of that situation, id rather bug out in a window like that.
Never be afraid to do the righteous thing, nothing righteous is ever easy.October 18, 2014 at 12:41 am #27321
I forget the movie , but it had Robert Duval in it as an old astronaut . He was in a bar and a kid that thinks he is hot sh*t was giving him an attitude . Duval’s character asked him how many landings he has under his belt , the kid answered a number ….then added simulated …..Duval’s reply was ” Life isnt a video game son , its really not ”
Thats how I feel about tech crap , you need to feel the real pain , confusion , and exhaustion . Dont get me wrong , I have seen some incredible games , I can see how kids get addicted to them , but for ground training , I have to be skeptical on how useful that would be , I can see it for training pilots , as crashing planes is expensive .
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