October 3, 2015 at 3:21 pm #44225
I have to agree with Malgus on the SSRI issue from personal experience . I will relate this story in a way that is generalized , because the experience is a personal one , and I dont want to get into exact details with this person on a forum with people I dont know face to face . I knew a woman that started taking anti depressants to get herself out of a funk and past experiences that surfaced after her mother passed away . Her coping ability stopped working , as the death of her mother was the straw that broke the camel’s back . It must be said at this point , that this woman prior to this was a normal , hard working individual , with a good career and many interests in life , not some flake .
The doctor gave her the newest SSRI pill of the time , her personality started to change , from easy going to , fits of anger or sadness , then she switched to another med . Same results , but it got even worse . They kept changing her meds , in an attempt to find the “right ” one , and she made 5 suicide attempts while this was going on . During one episode , she was feeling suicidal , she had little money at this point because she had quit her career and taken out her retirement to live on ( this was her judgment under the influence of the SSRIs ) . So she went to a crisis center , that had volunteer doctors , as well as shrinks . I drove her there myself , after she filled out all the paperwork , and went in to see the doctor …………………….here is what they found . A volunteer doctor , took one look at the med list and told her what her REAL problem was , she was allergic to SSRIs , ……………..the other doctors that she was paying didnt even notice , or explore the possibility of that . They got her off of those , and went into the older pre SSRI path and family of meds . After two years away from SSRIs , she got back on her feet , went back to her career , and started to become the person she was before her mother passed . I have to state as a witness , that our doctors are incompetent , our system is a joke , and we are nothing but cattle in it . Oh , by the way , the doctor at the crisis center that was able figure out what the problem was , in one session , was from India ………….saved a woman’s life and didnt get payed a dime .
( Note : The doctors at the center had a private practice of their own , but just cared enough to volunteer their time to help )
Unrelated to SSRIs , but is also a problem , are all the “legalized ” junkies out there . There are people that will go to one doctor , get a script for meds , then go to another doctor for the same thing . Sometimes two or three doctors , then abuse the drugs at will . Apparently its a bigger problem than we might think , because doctors have been attempting for years to get a nationwide data base going , so that when a new patient comes in , they will know if they are currently seeing another doctor and what meds are being prescribed to that person , in an attempt to stop some of that .October 3, 2015 at 5:07 pm #44228
Again, with all due respect Tolik, that is a logical error – generalizing from one to many. I just read an article yesterday about a fish that was actually found to have a lung. Therefore, I can generalize that all fish have lungs. I also know people that have a condition called celiac disease, resulting in an inability to eat anything containing gluten. They get very ill, often develop additional autoimmune disorders, and run a much higher risk of developing non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. Therefore, NO human should ever eat anything that has wheat, barley, or rye in it – at least according to that same logical error.
Now, with that statement I am in no way diminishing the experience of the person you cite. That absolutely happens. I have also seen it very up close and all to personally to someone I care about a great deal. Those are tragic – period.
Separately, there is still the overwhelming preponderance of experience that the large majority of people taking SSRIs do NOT become significantly angry, violent, even homicidal. The numbers are there. To focus on the individual legitimate tragedies of bad reactions to these medications in connection with gun-related tragedies, is to play right into the hands of the gun grabbers. They LOVE this kind of discussion.
Again: if they can generate enough belief in this line of thinking, they can wipe out all people who are taking (or maybe ever have taken) SSRIs and other medications used in mental health treatment from those eligible to exercise their 2nd Amendment rights.. If they can use that list to identify anyone who’s ever had a mental health diagnosis (such as a limited period of clinical depression following birth of a child, death of a loved one, etc., for example), they can add those “dangerous” people with “mental health problems to the list of “ineligible” citizens. Anyone that doesn’t believe that’s part of the agenda, simply don’t know what’s being talked about in the anti-gun circles at all levels of government and the non-government organizations that help generate public opinion.
So perhaps let me clarify what I said: SSRIs are NOT the issue with respect to gun violence. Separately, I also clearly recognize that there are limited numbers of people that have serious individual issues related to them. Just please keep those two separate.
To maybe lighten the discussion just a bit while preserving the valid reasoning, one might take a look at the web sites that warn of the lethal danger of the chemical DHMO (dihydromonoxide). It must be banned! In fact, everything said on that page is true – in selected situations and individual circumstances. But the DHMO hoax has embarrassed many intelligent people. Such is the tactic of the gun grabbers.October 3, 2015 at 7:55 pm #44229
GS, concerning more suicides in exchange for fewer mass murders from SSRI impacted young people, the inference being that many more lives are saved via fewer suicides. I for one would rather many more suicides in exchange for fewer mass murders even if the ratio is very lopsided on there being more suicides. Suicide is profoundly sad and tragic, but they are making a choice for themselves even if that final choice was not a rational decision. The victims such as we saw yet again in Oregon had no choice.October 3, 2015 at 11:05 pm #44233
Thank you for your lengthy reply.
I’ll be brief: I stink at statistical analysis. Really suck at it. I know enough about statistical analysis to know that you can make numbers say whatever you want them to say – usually in support of whomever is paying the bills.
That said, the one thing that stood out from your first post is this: Note that very last sentence: even these researchers say it may create more problem than it solves by not giving these meds to that age group.
Thing is, we already know what the mean is, since we already know how kids behaved prior to the invention of SSRI’s and MAOI’s. Since they literally did not exist, kids – and young people – could not take them.
My personal feelings on the matter are that “depression” and ADHD/ADD were pushed by Big Pharma in order to sell their crap “medications”. I’m not saying kids and young people don’t have depression or ADHD/ADD, in effect denying their existence. I’m saying that I think the problem is much less profound than what we’re being told for the sole purpose of selling medications and making money. Classic ‘create a problem, then sell them the cure’ snake oil flim-flam nonsense…
As for teachers, school social workers, etc., passing them out like candy, THEY CANNOT!
Well, that’s a relief, being as I never said they could. My focus was on the diagnosis, not prescription. If I wasn’t clear enough, I apologize. Rank amateurs in the field of Psychiatry – to include teachers, teaching assistants, school nurses, etc – tell parents their kids has ADD/ADHD or some other phony baloney ailment. The parents buy off on it and dope their kids up till they’re zombies.
As far as your second post, I still maintain that gun rights and SSRI’s are intimately linked. NOT by me, but by those who seek to inflict their toxic political agenda on the rest of us, as if they have some moral imperative to dictate to the rest of us how we should live, what we should own, how much we should own, etc. And those are just the zealots. The real vultures are those who wait with pre-written bills, salivating at the thought of yet another mass shooting so they can fill in the date, time, location and number of the dead, using peoples’ outrage as grease for their legislation before the bodies are even cold – THEY’RE the ones who made SSRI’s part of this equation by virtue of their continuing denial to address the issue – that SSRI’s cause a significant percentage of young people to have psychotic breaks and jump on the mass killer bandwagon. Instead, they affix blame to an inanimate object and wait for another heinous event to occur so they hopefully gin up enough outrage to have their garbage bills passed.
Let me change gears and put something up for you to consider.
Let’s say I’m a bartender. I sell booze. You walk in and start having some frosty adult beverages. Because I want to make money, I sell you everything you ask for. Later on, you cash out, pile in your car and head home. On the way home, you cross the center line and take out a family of 4 heading the other way…
Am I culpable? I didn’t make you drink all that booze – you did that on your own. As well as climbing into your car and driving home. We all know what the effects of alcohol are on humans, yet I still sold you as much as you could drink…
Are doctors culpable? Knowing that a significant percentage of young people WILL have a psychotic break and/or suicidal impulses, yet they still prescribe the chemicals? If a kid takes SSRI’s, goes off the rails and takes out half a dozen of his classmates, is the doctor culpable?
To me, the two are inextricably linked. We didn’t have young people committing these atrocities until use of these psychotropics became widespread. The rise of the use of SSRI’s and the rise of these mass shootings are concurrent. And it’s not an accident.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1
October 3, 2015 at 11:56 pm #44235
- This reply was modified 5 years, 11 months ago by Malgus.
I want to jump in here. Malgus, As GS stated people are sick prior to receiving any medicines. It’s important to keep that fact in mind. It is not the drug making people sick. Not all sick individuals can be helped with drugs. In the end it takes drugs like Thorazine to control really sick minds and it turns the patient into a zombie (minus the aggression). One of the strongest drugs they will give to help control behavioral problems while a person is on the street, is lithium and it is not always effective. As GS has pointed out, the grabbers want you to believe their narrative. It is always false. The grabbers do not want to address the root problem of mental health, you never hear any grabber address mental health as the solution to this problem.
Prior to the 70’s States maintained mental health facilities that housed many of the types of individuals we see today involved in mass shootings. Today those facilities are closed. In today’s world the only help they can receive is limited by the policy limits of their health plan. Beyond the limits of the plan families are are their own. Typically hospital stays in the mental health ward are very short. Doctors are reluctant to prescribe the stronger medicines until all other methods have been exhausted, and then they don’t always work. In the end the ill person cannot be treated in a secure facility until they hurt either themselves or someone else and are placed in a facility under a court order. Unlike in the past. And that is why we have people with personality disorders loose killing people in schools. A simplified version.October 4, 2015 at 3:07 am #44241
Appreciate the comments.
As GS stated people are sick prior to receiving any medicines. It’s important to keep that fact in mind. It is not the drug making people sick. Not all sick individuals can be helped with drugs.
How is depression a ‘sickness’? And it’s a pretty fair leap to go from depression, etc, to homicidal maniac. Medications address the symptoms, not the cause. Whatever was bothering them is still there while they’re taking the chems.
And curiously, why are there “black box” warnings on the prescription bottles if SSRI’s don’t cause abnormal behavior?
From NIMH’s website:
In the FDA review, no completed suicides occurred among nearly 2,200 children treated with SSRI medications. However, about 4 percent of those taking SSRI medications experienced suicidal thinking or behavior, including actual suicide attempts—twice the rate of those taking placebo, or sugar pills.
In response, the FDA adopted a “black box” label warning indicating that antidepressants may increase the risk of suicidal thinking and behavior in some children and adolescents with MDD. A black-box warning is the most serious type of warning in prescription drug labeling.
The warning also notes that children and adolescents taking SSRI medications should be closely monitored for any worsening in depression, emergence of suicidal thinking or behavior, or unusual changes in behavior, such as sleeplessness, agitation, or withdrawal from normal social situations. Close monitoring is especially important during the first four weeks of treatment. SSRI medications usually have few side effects in children and adolescents, but for unknown reasons, they may trigger agitation and abnormal behavior in certain individuals.
Followed by: However, it may increase the risk for suicidal behaviors in a small subset of adolescents.
What this says to me, is that despite their squishy, noncommittal weasel-wording (using words like “can” and “may”, etc), they know that a significant percentage of young folks who take this stuff is going to go off the rails – and they have no idea why!
They know it’s gonna happen – has happened – and moreover the only way to know if your kid is going to sped out and throw an axle is by having them take SSRI’s… sorta like sticking your hand in the fire to see if it’s hot.
They play CYA with phrases like “may trigger ‘agitation’ and abnormal behavior in certain individuals”… I’d say that shooting up a movie theater full of people would qualify as “abnormal behavior”… and “agitation” is what I felt today trying to get my internet service cancelled and they kept me on the phone an hour talking to some foreigner who couldn’t Speekie Da Eengerish very well and who kept trying to sell me upgrades to my present service… THAT’S ‘agitation’… describing the reaction some young folks have as ‘agitation’ is probably the understatement of the century…
And I don’t trust the soothing overtures from the Anti’s whatsoever – I can see through their bullsh*t just fine. They claim that they want to keep “guns out of the hands of crazy people” or more PC – “mentally ill”…
You word it that way, well, anyone who voices opposition is automatically classified as someone who wants “mentally ill” people to have access to firearms. Completely loaded statement. Just like “So, have you stopped beating your wife?” No matter what you say, you’re hosed. And their position completely ignores the fact that the machinery already exists to keep people who have been adjudicated mentally incompetent from having access to firearms.
We give them an inch, we’re hosed. Ask yourself “Who gets to say who is or is not “mentally incompetent”? And also, as GS has brought up, the definitions of exactly what is defined as “mentally ill” has changed. Which means if the definitions can, have and will be changed in the future, then literally any behavior can be said to be indicative of “mental illness” and *poof* – there goes your IIA rights… especially when those who make the rules draw their paychecks from those in authority.
Don’t like authority very much? Oh, you must have Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)! Mentally ill – no guns for you. Oh, you don’t particularly care for certain types of people? “Racism” is now a mental illness – no guns for you, either…
I am aware of the history of the mental health industry in the US – had a nice 3 day argument with someone elsewhere on the Web about it. With the rise of modern chems in the 50’s, we emptied the sanitariums in 20 years. Sanitariums empty? Then why fund them? They withered and were eliminated. Some still exist, but the waiting list is long – and private care is Big Bux. It still falls to Big Pharma – who else are making the chems that people take by the truckload? – and the doctors that prescribe them. Especially now in the age of Obamacare – Doc gets a boatload of free “sample” chems from some Big Pharma company and he dishes them out – it’s in his financial best interest to do so. Next thing you know, he’s writing scripts for a whole new crop of “patients” and making Bux, the pharmaceutical company is making Bux…
Sorry if my cynicism is showing, but I have a very bleak outlook on such things… My rule is pretty much “Douchebag until proven otherwise” most of the time. You get played for a chump often enough, it leaves a mark…
Meh… gonna go to bed… see you guys tomorrow. Have a good ‘un…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1October 4, 2015 at 7:16 am #44243
Fundamentally, we’ve got huge overlap in agreement – far more than disagreement. My main concern up front was that we don’t help feed the arguments being made (as you correctly put it, with their pre-written bills, for example, as they just salivate, waiting for the next mass shooting to “trigger” introduction of their latest anti-gun legislation). Spot on.
You will get no argument from me at all on the following beliefs: that Big Pharma is interested primarily in their own thriving survival; that we’re a much sicker society than we were 50 years ago; that SSRIs and other meds CAN cause some serious side effects including fatal ones; or – just one more to keep the list short, because there are plenty more – that proper MANAGEMENT of patients is abysmal, which leads to horrendous consequences all too frequently.
With that, I’ll just throw in a few more facts that you simply won’t see in the popular press. For example, let’s say a person becomes clinically depressed (meaning that they truly warrant a formal diagnosis). Anger is FREQUENTLY a characteristic of depression. It’s not just the stereotypical moping around, having no energy or will to get up off one’s butt and do something (though that’s part of it too). Interestingly, some studies have pointed to violent acts (such as suicide as well as violence toward others) tending to come fairly shortly after beginning the meds (weeks, not months or years). The plausible theory is that in the early stages of the meds beginning to have an effect, the person develops more energy – and at that point, the focus is still including the anger toward self or others. But now they’ve got the ENERGY to carry out an act consistent with their poor thinking patterns, ironically BECAUSE the meds brought their moods up sufficiently that they had the energy to do something about their anger or hurt.
Another highly interesting, but almost never discussed, fact is that there are NUMEROUS neurotransmitters (ranging upwards of ½ dozen) that affect mental status. Yet the massive focus of the drugs is on serotonin alone. So it would seem to be no wonder that SSRIs and other meds targeting serotonin might not work, and might even have negative consequences when they throw the portion of the brain dealing with serotonin off balance! (on top of the underlying depression or other condition). What if the problem is with one of the OTHER neurotransmitters? A less-used medication for example, Wellbutrin, is believed to act on dopamine and norepinephrine, and not have any appreciable effect on serotonin. And it can be very effective for some, whereas SSRIs don’t touch the problem or make them worse. That, by itself, is a great argument for the premise that it’s the MANAGEMENT of patients that is a major issue. You don’t give an anti-cancer drug to a person with an aneurysm – you determine what the CAUSE of the headaches or dizziness, or whatever might be, not just throw a drug at it and see if it “works.” Ooops! And I’ll carry the Wellbutrin example just a bit further. Not only can it be a significantly useful antidepressant for some, it can also WIRE others, and make any anxiety that goes along with their depression become multiplied – without helping the depression. Again, Ooops! Even more interesting (remember the discussion about an UNDERstimulated frontal cortex in ADD/ADHD), Wellbutrin has in some cases actually HELPED people with ADD/ADHD. But a well-functioning person who also takes it, could feel like they’re taking an “upper.”
In other words, it’s complicated, and the news media and Big Pharma don’t help at all. And that just feeds the gun-grabbers all the more false arguments for getting rid of guns altogether.
One last item, and I’m going to bed far later then I ever intended. 40 and 50 years ago we had rifle clubs in high schools and nobody even thought about it. Kids could go in and buy a .22 rifle. And nobody even thought about it. And we left our doors unlocked when we left home for a few hours – and never worried about it. But I don’t blame meds alone (or even significantly) for that societal change. It’s a long list of factors that would probably trigger an even longer argument here (and elsewhere). Ain’t goin’ there!October 4, 2015 at 1:38 pm #44245
Here is something to consider , all those psych drugs , alter the brain chemistry in some way , in order to get the desired affect . The human brain is not fully developed until the mid 20’s . So what you are doing is altering a brain that has not fully matured , and being surprised if the person behaves in a negative way . The drug companies know this . Quite frankly , if you think about it , it should be illegal to even prescribe such medications to anyone under age 30 . Up until then , use the old method of either counseling , or a good kick in the ass . We are turning our population into a bunch of pussies . I used to date a psych nurse , and I asked her about working in the nut house . She told me some stories , some were funny , but one thing she did say , is that their reality is as real to them , as ours is to us , and they are just as convinced of that reality as we are . THink about that for a moment . You give a young person psych drugs , that alter an undeveloped brains chemistry , and cant understand why they think the way they do or do the things they do . Its like drinking Expresso all day , and wondering why you cant sleep at night .Not that all the nut cases are under the influence of SSRi’s or any other drug , but the ones that are , are absolutely convinced about what they are doing when they do it , and we act shocked when it happens . Then blame it on the gun , which is strictly a political agenda , but the practice of giving the drugs out like candy to people , knowing there is a possibility of altering that person’s mental development is simply criminal . Again , its about the money . Who knows what other , more subtle things they are doing to people , that are just as negative . The brain is nothing to play with .October 4, 2015 at 2:42 pm #44246
Here is a link to an article with some new information about the shooter.
Everyone can draw their own conclusions, although I believe people should give consideration to the fact that people like this shooter are ill before they receive treatment. Drugs are not the root cause of their problems.October 4, 2015 at 6:21 pm #44247
After reading everyone’s post here one thing is for sure we will have big problems if there is a collapse and they do not have the drugs to take. Food and water are not the only problem we will have. Pharmaceutical drugs!October 4, 2015 at 8:38 pm #44248
… [W]e will have big problems if there is a collapse and they do not have the drugs to take.
I have been concerned about that for quite some time. Freedom touched on something that has been little-considered — and should be! There are millions and millions of people in the US, and countless others around the world, taking medications that cannot, and should not be discontinued abruptly. If supplies are suddenly cut off, there will be other crises the likes of which we have not factored in. With the emptying of psychiatric hospitals over the past decade or two, there are people all over with very, very significant and substantially accurate psychiatric diagnoses. Just consider those with thinking that is extremely disorganized – alternate realities if you will. What happens when they’re suddenly cut off from the medications that currently assist them to be “manageable” (and even sometimes quite “normal”)? What happens when the person who’s been doing rather well on meds, but who once shot up his TV set because the CIA was monitoring him through that TV set, is suddenly without that pharmaceutical support? And what about those that “just” have a diagnosis such as “depression,” but are doing well as long as they’re medicated? (Almost every one of us knows such a person, yet often have no idea such is the case.) There are many MILLIONS that require meds in order to get along at least passably from day to day. There will be a giant unraveling in society when such a day comes, with massive numbers unable to cope with the stresses of major upheaval due to political, economic, or other conditions. You may suddenly not know the neighbors you thought you knew.
Am I suggesting they will all become violent? Not at all – most of them won’t, unless provoked while lacking the coping skills. But they won’t be very nice to be around, or very useful as allies and team members. Breakdown of society will be more dramatic than it ever would have been 50 years ago – coping skills are less than they were then, and without the meds the coping skills of those millions will plummet well below that which would have otherwise been expected in the face of disasters, upheavals, etc. Solution? I don’t have one. It’s what we’re facing….October 4, 2015 at 8:57 pm #44249
Post-SHTF, some of the mentally ill may initially do some damage once cut off from their medications, but they will then quickly become casualties themselves.October 6, 2015 at 5:14 am #44292
I’ll admit my prejudices up front: I think chemical cures for problems that start out as bad thinking or failures to think are suspect at best. I also think that many of the horrible killing/suicides connected with SSRIs are often triggered by lapses or inconsistesie in the prescribed dosages or schedules. Still, I cannot ignore the learned testimony of professionals that they often “work” well enough to enable many people to live normal, productive, and worthwhile lives. It’s just that small tragic fraction that sometimes runs far off the rails….
But one of the contributing forces pushing young Christopher Harper Mercer to his tragic and violent breakdown, seems to me to be that he was one of many, raised by single mother without the stabilizing influence of a father who actually cared how he turned out. It seems to me that many young mens’ lives are predisposed to fail for the lack of guiding male moral example. It’s a rare woman who can teach a boy how to be a man. I know it can be done — witness Dr. Benjamin Carson and his brother, or GeorgiaSaint’s (and my) former radio “companion,” Ken Hamblin. But it’s a rarity.
Cry, "Treason!"October 6, 2015 at 6:13 am #44293
Most confusing day in Harlem ?
Fathers DayOctober 6, 2015 at 11:18 am #44294
Most confusing day in America generally? Election Day. The day I envy people with psyche drugs. From what I see this CHM probably thought of his actions as some sort of fantasy game. Go to point A release bombs, go to point B cancel this role and life. Jump to heaven or jump to hell. Choice made.
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.