Tagged: guns simplify budget
March 31, 2014 at 8:51 pm #5926
I was asked this by somebody , this person does not have a lot of money , but wanted to buy a few guns over a period of time . He wanted to keep both the pistols and rifles in the same caliber , so that he would only have to get one type of ammunition for each , and so that whatever he had on hand would fit all he had .
After I thought about his reasoning , it seemed logical , the KISS principle at work , to tell the truth , I kind of liked the idea of simplicity . One ammo that will fit what you have , all cleaning kits will fit , on and on . His only struggle was which caliber for the rifles and pistols ……………. I had to tell him , that depended on what he wanted them for , and how he planned to use them , and where , and what he was comfortable shooting …..he lives in the city , and plans to stay there …so long range , like in a rural setting , would most likely not be of that much value . Interesting concept , he would save money in maintenance items , simplify his ammunition needs , etc . , I have a few weapons that are the same caliber ( AK and Mini 30 ) and two 9mm pistols , as well as other things , but it did make sense to me .March 31, 2014 at 10:00 pm #5953
It does make sense, of course when one is out of ammo they are completely out. I think your friend will be surprised how much “long range” he will need in an urban setting. If I am understanding your post, he wants to use a pistol caliber carbine and a pistol in the same caliber. Look at the ballistic data. 9mm is a common cartridge and has killed a lot of people (WWI, WWII, and every thing sense) so all egos aside look at its performance. From a 16 inch barrel it is easy to use out to 100m. about 115-125m (depending on load/cartridge and carbine) it begins to drop quickly. Depending on your zero (distance from shooter to target) it can really drop fast. I have several of them and am very comfortable with them – inside of 200m! But, I also know my hold over for a shot to hit at 200. Just my thoughts.March 31, 2014 at 10:57 pm #5971
If finances dictate a common caliber, I would suggest a .357/.38 pistol and lever action carbine. Good stopping power, relatively inexpensive and ammo is still pretty common and available. I’m not sure of the ballistic numbers, but I suspect it will give you good distance. What kind of distance are they looking to reach out and touch someone?
Another option, might be a common rifle caliber, and a common pistol caliber, such as 7.62X39 for carbine an 9mm for pistol.March 31, 2014 at 11:01 pm #5973
I think he wanted only two calibers to deal with , one rifle and a pistol caliber . Considering how poor the guy is ( not dirt poor , but not a lot to spend ) and how some pistols can run as much as a rifle , I bet he gets something like a Saiga or Taurus . They are on the lower cost end , but depending on the model , can in fact be a good weapon .Be interesting to see what he does . I agree about the 9mm , not real big on pistols , but understand they are one of the best things to have in some situations , I wanted my girl to be able to handle it as easy as I could , so I got the 9 mmApril 1, 2014 at 12:14 am #5986
The 357 in both types of gun is a good choice as far as ballistics, but is is not a cheap round or highly available right now. Revolvers are costly now as well. He could buy a used 9 or 40 for about 300. Still find lots of ammo for either caliber. He could buy one of the HK clones in 308 or 5.56 for long range and increased fire power. Cetme’s are in the $600 range, C93’s are around $800.April 1, 2014 at 12:49 am #5992
I love the idea of one or two calibers becuase I have :22lr, 9mm, 38, 357 & 40 hand guns
5.56, 243, 6.5mm, rifles
bought and sold: 380acp, 41 mag, 44 mag, 45acp, 30-30, & 30-06.
I have reloading equip for each. It’s ok for recreation but not so hot for simplicity.April 1, 2014 at 1:46 am #6001
Why not have your buddy go Old School?
.45 Colt (not to be confused with the .45 ACP. And no, it’s not called the .45 Long Colt. That was never its name. That was made up by people who wanted to differentiate between the Colt round and the .45 Schofield (which can be fired in .45 Colt revolvers like a .38 Spl can be fired in a .357 Mag revolver)).
The .45 Colt is actually more of a badass than the .45 ACP – a 250 grain flat nose lead bullet moving at roughly 900 to 1000 fps. Faster out of a rifle.
There are loads of revolvers chambered for the .45 Colt. Same with lever guns. The Italian reproduction rifles are very affordable. Plenty of revolvers out there chambered for the old warhorse. I have a S&W Mountain Gun in .45 Colt.
For reloading, well, the old Colt was originally a Black Powder round, so he can use BP or smokeless. Simple. 40 grains of 3F black powder under a 250 grain lead bullet. That was the original load and until the .357 mag came along, it was king of the hill. Not bad for a round invented in 1873. Your friend can even get one of those oldie but goodie Lee Loaders and he can knock together good ammo on his coffee table. The whole thing will fit in your pocket.
Oh, by the way – as far as powder availability is concerned, the Chinese were making BP thousands of years ago. It’s easy. You can make small, useful amounts in your kitchen. It’s just meatball chemistry. Lead you can scrounge pretty much anywhere. Especially old car batteries (watch that acid! Having a baking soda mix in a squirt bottle is a good idea.. ), pipes, sinkers, tintype, etc… single cavity mould, a small iron pot and a dipper and you can cast bullets on your stove… or even an open fire. What the alloy is, well, who cares? You’re making meatball field expedient ammo, not shooting the Nationals..
Biggest problem is gonna be primers. I know how to re-watt spent primers, but…. that information is sort of sensitive. It involves certain chemicals that a certain agency doesn’t like you to buy… once TSHTF, I suspect all bets will be off though…
Here… this is all you need to roll your own 45 Colt ammo… minus powder, projos and primers…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.April 1, 2014 at 2:32 am #6008
Malgus, just a thought for you. Many of today’s low maintenance batteries are not lead anymore. They are an alloy hardened with cadmium. Better to stick with trucks or deep-cycle batteries from boats and golf carts if you insist on using them. On the other hand, I strongly recommend that newbies (or anyone else for that matter) not be steered toward using batteries for their lead source. The money you get from recycling the lead from batteries will buy you quite a bit of good, clean lead ingots. It’s not just the acid, but also arsenic. When heated, poisonous fumes (Arsine and Stibine gas) can be released from the chemicals in the batteries. Not good.
Also depending on the firearm and brass used, I wouldn’t recommend loading them too hot. It was originally a low pressure load slinging a big chuck of lead. Otherwise, a rifle and handgun in this caliber would be awesome. Having said all that, I would be more inclined to go with either the .44 mag (which will handle any .44 special rounds you stumble across) and will handle from 180gr to 300gr bullets, or .357mag for the versatility of be able to shoot both .38special and .357 mag. And can be loaded with a wide range of bullets from 110grs all the way up to 180grs. Typically in the rifles your better off with the heavier bullets. But of course, every gun is different and you should try a variety of loads in your guns to find the most reliable and accurate.April 1, 2014 at 4:10 am #6053
Bushy, I thank you for your post and also thank you for the warnings…
The update on modern batteries… I honestly had no idea that most low-maintenance batteries had been modified like that.
Still, we’re talking about a post SHTF situation, not a home reloading/casting rig during peacetime with plenty all around us…. Recycling places open during a SHTF event? Not saying they won’t be open but…
I’ve been trying to think of sources of clean lead that could be pressed into service if I had to cannibalize it during a SHTF event… yeah, fishing sinkers… wheel weights too, but either they’re not lead, or they actually are lead, but they got this cruddy plastic coating… I suppose kicking in the door to a tire place or a Goodyear could yield a bucket of wheel weights.. some deadblow mallets are still made of lead… and kicking in the front door of a recycling center might pay dividends… they have to store lead somewhere, right?
Thing is, if you’re moving, and if you’re running low on ammo and you have to cobble some together, you need to be able to scrounge components.. lead, powder and primers. If you have a priming/depriming tool, you can cannibalize pistol ammo of another caliber for the primers. I wouldn’t go so far as to use the powder, since you have no idea of the burn rate, etc, but if I needed lead, would I bust up a truck battery hoping to snag a few pounds of lead? If I had no other recourse, then yeah. Melting lead is dodgy anyway, since melting even pure elemental lead gives off fumes… I would do it outside and make sure to stay upwind of the pot… again, I would only do this as a last resort. Same as re-watting primers. Some of the materials necessary to re-watt a primer are rather skittish, and I would only do so if I had no other recourse…
Using BP, there’s literally no way you can overload the case. BP is low pressure anyway. But the old Colt round did successfully make the transition from BP to smokeless. There’s plenty of manufacturers who hot-rod the 45 Colt, like Buffalo Bore, but they warn to only use them in strong, modern revolvers like the Colt Anaconda or the Casull, or to use them in rifles or single shot break open pistols of sufficient strength… I wouldn’t use a +P Colt round from CorBon in some creaky old 1st Generation Peacemaker… that would be just stupid.
Bottom line is that if you are going to reload your empties, you have to know the limitations of your particular sidearm and rifle and load accordingly, following the guidelines set down by every powder manufacturer out there. I have a half dozen reloading manuals and I always cross reference. I don’t hot rod rounds now. Why would I do that in the future? As a bonafied ‘smithy, I know all too well the results of people trying to hot rod their reloads… they bring me their shattered firearms, wanting to know if I can fix them. The most spectacular was a rifle that was chambered in 7mm Weatherby Magnum. The owner had chambered a hot 7mm Remington Magnum reload and pulled the trigger. What was left of it, we mounted on a display board. If I remember right, it was in 16 pieces… I think the scope was picked up and tracked by Cheyenne Mountain traveling somewhere near escape velocity… the dangers of overpressure.. hot rodding ammo just beats up the gun and burns out the barrel that much faster…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1April 1, 2014 at 4:36 am #6056
Yep, I understand. It’s a shame sometimes how things have changed over the years. Take wheel weights for example. They used be a great way to scrounge lead, but then somebody started worrying about lead being bad for the environment and they started making them out of zinc. They’re still available, but for how long. I just don’t know. Then Linotype, another great idea, went the way of the Dodo bird. And now that they closed down the last primary Lead Smelting plant in the US as of the first of the year things are liable to get a bit dicey. Next thing you know they will all pull a “California” on us and outlaw lead bullets. Don’t know what’s going to happen to this world.April 1, 2014 at 4:38 am #6057
Which is kinda weird as lead is naturally occurring ………………April 1, 2014 at 5:18 am #6068
Tolik, good point!April 2, 2014 at 6:09 pm #6350
There is a lot to say about ‘one cartridge’ families. Both good and bad.
Personally, I am slowly changing my collection to accommodate my family and the different needs we have now.
With two new hunters (big game) this year, I’m changing a few things around to fit them and us long term for hunting as well as defense.
I am not limiting us to one or two cartridges, but making choices that make sense for what we have already and how those items can still be useful.
My AR is getting a few new parts, 6.8mm barrel, bolt face and magazines. That way my daughter or wife has something to use, and the bullets themselves can be used in my son’s .270. My daughter’s .308 is getting finished, and both the bullets and ammo can be used in my .308.
Me, I’m looking to build another 7mm/8mm (maybe .308) Mauser rifle for hunting, Scout style. If I go with the 8mm, it’ll interchange with a family heirloom,if the 7mm I have hundreds of ammo already from a previous rifle and it’s a favorite cartridge .
I know people/families that only have ‘one’ cartridge for everyone, and there is a logistics advantage but also a disadvantage. In the recent shortage, many people couldn’t get their one common cartridge, anywhere. But unusual cartridges were available from previous stock. You couldn’t find a .223/.308 but there was .25-06 and 7mm Mag on the shelf from old stock.
Buy what you like, what you need and what suits your needs.
After that, pile it deep, keep it cool and dry.
Be it one cartridge or twenty, enjoy your choice.
As to handguns, I’ve been trimming the choices a bit, but not for the same reasons.
My wife and kids can’t handle the cannons I like to play with.
The guns are too big, let alone the cartridges that they use.
So changes are happening. Easier to shoot, easier to maintain, smaller and lighter.
For better or worse, I’d rather have them using guns they can handle effectively than just something I like.
I’m keeping my ‘carry’ guns, but a lot of toys are getting changed out for their use.
One cartridge? Hardly.
The wife has her 9mm and .38.
The daughter is scary with her .38. She’ll eventually get a 9mm, if we can find one she ‘likes/can shoot”.
My son really wants a 9mm.
Me, I am not giving up my .45’s. But may build myself a .38 Super to use the same bullets/primers as their guns.
Again, choose what suits your needs, what you can use effectively and what you like.
If that means 23 different cartridges, you make do.
Choosing only one, generally means that someone is going to be using something that is not the best choice for them, not as effective in their hands and they will not like/appreciate as much.
If you feel you must limit choices, limit it to two or three primary choices with secondary or tertiary choices being exempt. Such as .308, .30-06 and .300WM as rifle choices and 9mm, .40 and .45 for handguns for primary choices. If someone wants to have a 10mm and a .270, they’re secondary choices and they better have the primary choices covered first.April 2, 2014 at 6:39 pm #6360
Yeah , Americans seem to be about the only people that think the .223 is a good cartridge , Most of NATO hates it , the British have been trying to get us to switch to 8mm for years .April 2, 2014 at 7:25 pm #6380
Around here, the .223 is legal to hunt antelope and deer with.
Hard to believe but it’s true.
I’ve used the .223, found it lacking.
Were it not for the pile of ammo I use for classes, I’d dump the .223 barrel completely.
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