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  • #50235
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    What SHOULD be leading the headlines is entirely missing from any mainstream or even semi-mainstream news outlet.

    The North Dakota State Historic Preservation Office declared that the land to be dug up as part of the Dakota Access Pipeline was free of burial grounds and other significant artifacts. A land owner along the path was concerned, and asked a recognized independent expert to specifically look at his 8100 acres.

    On 29 August, the independent expert “found 82 significant historical markings, of which 27 were grave locations.”

    On 2 September, the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe filed a motion for “an immediate injunction to halt a construction path that was steadily approaching the site that was just revealed.”

    The next day (Saturday, 3 September) the construction company packed up their equipment and moved it almost three miles from where they’d been working and bulldozed exactly the land being requested for protection, before a judge had even had a chance to consider the motion. Clearly, FedGov (the Federal District Court in D.C) notified the pipeline company of the request, and all evidence was obliterated and buried within 24 hours of the Friday filing (note that the pipeline company had not worked on weekends previously, and this was a holiday weekend at that!).

    The Tribe then further submitted another request the following day (Sunday) in which they stated:

    11. It appears that construction crews skipped over many miles of uncleared land to clear the area described by Mr. Mentz in Friday’s declaration. Id. at ¶ 10. The timing suggests that DAPL destroyed these sites deliberately and knowingly in order to gain some perceived advantage. The public interest is harmed by this kind of subterfuge of the litigation process. DAPL’s intentional destruction of cultural sites that had been submitted to the Court as evidence of irreparable harm, just hours previously, also may constitute spoliation of relevant evidence. “Spoliation” is “defined as ‘the destruction or material alteration of evidence or the failure to preserve property for another’s use as evidence in pending or reasonably foreseeable litigation.’ ”

    http://www.indianz.com/News/2016/09/05/standingrock090416.pdf

    Now the FAA (obviously a Federal entity) has stepped into the fray yet again, and declared a 4½ mile radius in the protest area to effectively be a “no fly” zone. The only exception to the federally imposed no fly zone is North Dakota STATE law enforcement aircraft. No other aircraft (including news helicopters or even private drones with mounted personal cameras) can legally be flown in the area – therefore no widespread record will be available of “whatever” goes on there. There are many confirming articles documenting this action, but one with an interesting point of view can be seen (and read) at the following site. There you can view law enforcement attempting to shoot down a private drone merely trying to record police action:

    http://www.copblock.org/167709/faa-no-fly-zone-over-dapl-protests-standing-rock-nd/

    If they can do it to one, they can do it to all (and they are). As Russell Means declared in an outstanding video on the Constitution and our national current state of affairs, “Americans are the new Indians.” I’ve posted that video elsewhere on this forum twice, gotten no comment, so I won’t bother to repost it here.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    #50261
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    I’m having a problem with much of what is going on there.

    I am more disturbed by what the protestors are doing than the pipeline people.
    Some of their antics remind me of the BLM heavily as well as shenanigans from earlier times and people including Means.

    #50263
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    Though I’m not one to go out and seek opportunities to video police doing their job, I am appalled when I see police attempt to keep citizens from making video records of activities, especially when those citizens are not in any way interfering with the law enforcement activity itself. And when sacred artifacts, including grave sites, are allegedly found in the path of the construction and a federal court actually helps the construction company destroy that evidence (meaning destruction of the actual artifacts and burial grounds) before it can even be properly evaluated, I find that highly disturbing.

    I’m imagining a scenario where you learned that a Wal-Mart parking lot was to be constructed where some of your ancestors are buried. You protest and file a request for an immediate injunction, and the court immediately notifies the parking lot construction company, which at that moment was working across town on another site. But the construction company immediately moves their equipment across town and in 24 hours digs up the land for which you’ve requested protection, thereby destroying the remnants of your family. And previous to this, they had no history of working on Saturdays, but particularly chose a holiday weekend Saturday to destroy the property on which your family was buried. Add to that the element that clearly shows your family had written title to the property, but that it was subsequently and unilaterally taken from your family without compensation or even consultation. I’m having a hard time imagining you’d quietly sit back and let it happen without protest of any sort. Yet your response suggests it’s OK when done to other people.

    I’d emphasize that my original post above focused on the underhanded (if not illegal) hand-holding between the Court and the construction company, as well as the federal imposition of a no-fly zone for all but LE aircraft, thereby massively restricting news gathering. I made no comparison whatever between the actions of the protestors and the construction company, nor did I even mention the construction company employee that masqueraded as a protestor carrying an AR-15 (video evidence is available). I stayed out of that realm altogether, choosing to focus on the actions of federal government officials in multiple agencies (the Court system and FAA), as well as mentioning the video evidence of LE attempting to shoot down a drone with a camera attached. If those kinds of government over-reach don’t concern you, we have no discussion. I stand firmly on my summary point: “If they can do it to one, they can do it to all (and they are).”

    And what does the behavior of Russell Means in earlier times have to do with the validity of the video he made concerning the Constitution, in his last years of life? Did you even bother to watch it?

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 4 weeks ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 4 weeks ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    #50267
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Actually, watched it twice.

    My problem with the protesters begins when they never had the interest in protesting the pipeline plans before they were on the doorstep despite being invited repeatedly.
    It’s not like the pipeline map wasn’t public knowledge for a while.

    Secondly, an area that was clear suddenly has “X” number of hysterical sights on it? Found by a private contractor? Sounds like a Killary plot.

    Not saying either side is right, just that there are a lot of problems to be dealt with.

    As to the no fly zone, from a LE perspective, I couldn’t care less about the cameras, film me please. It’s the potential safety issues depending upon who is flying, and what is in the air. Too much potential for hazards.

    As to the hand holding, most if not all injunctions and stays I have dealt with were for a future time, not immediate. In this case, they knew there was a “contested” area they needed to get through before the time was up.
    How many of us will be buying AR’s if Killary is elected before some cutoff date? Slime bill ’94?

    None of this gives the protesters the right to damage personal or public property. That’s not protesting, that’s criminal.

    Shooting down a drone? Why should be the question asked. Why would you attract attention like that?

    .Gov overreach concerns me, as do other things. I’m not going to jump to conclusions about either side here. Especially when I think they are both wrong.

    #50268
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    First, I’m glad to see you think there is more fault on the pipeline/LE side then your first response seemed to indicate.

    As to the evidence (or lack thereof) on the 8100 acres, the point is that we now will never know. The private contractor has a solid reputation for assisting tribes in identification of artifacts, sites, etc., so presumably he’s got some idea of what he’s doing. If there was nothing there, I’d have to ask the immediate question: Why would the construction people suddenly move their equipment 3 miles to a different site, within 24 hours of the court filing, and bulldoze the area so that IF there was any evidence, it would no longer be available? That cost them extra money, to be sure. And they had no history, reportedly, of working on weekends, so a Saturday site-destruction, 3 miles from where they had been working 24 hours previously, on Labor Day weekend no less, is highly suggestive of them KNOWING the evidence was there, and acting in a most underhanded and even illegal manner to destroy it. As to whether the land was “clear” or not – that was determined by a North Dakota agency only, not the tribes involved. It’s not like government agencies never give “findings” based on trade-offs, pay-offs, etc.

    My problem with the protesters begins when they never had the interest in protesting the pipeline plans before they were on the doorstep despite being invited repeatedly. It’s not like the pipeline map wasn’t public knowledge for a while.

    Not so. The Standing Rock Sioux Tribe (SRST), the one with arguably the biggest stake in all this, has been involved in peacefully trying to get it moved or blocked for quite some time. The fact that it hasn’t made the news means nothing more than the “mere” fact that we’re no longer seeing any news reports on what’s still going on in eastern Ukraine. Just like the old saying, “Just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you,” one could also easily say, “Just because the news media isn’t reporting on it, doesn’t mean it’s not happening.” You just haven’t seen the long term involvement by the The SRST (and others) because it hasn’t been available on CNNNBCCBSABCFOXNPR or in NYTLATWaPO.

    The fact is that very early this year, SRST Chairman David Archambault II had already met with and gained the support of officials from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA), Department of the Interior, and the Advisory Council on Historic Preservation, well before the Army Corps of Engineers had expected to issue their ruling on granting of construction permits in May of this year. That’s hardly the equivalent of “they never had the interest in protesting the pipeline plans before they were on the doorstep.” The SRST was already fighting the DAPL long before it was finally approved – that’s a matter of record. I don’t know where you got your information (other than that’s the propaganda the news media wants everyone to believe). It’s simply false.
    Just as one example (note the March 2016 date): http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/03/19/dakota-access-pipeline-threat-what-you-need-know-163776

    The fact is, a huge portion of that land was Indian land as codified by the 1851 and 1868 Ft. Laramie Treaties, and how/when/why the lands have subsequently been removed from tribal possession is a deplorable part of American History rarely taught or discussed. The protests were peaceful, respectful, but completely uncovered by the news media initially. As the government-corporate complex pressed forward, the Natives understandably became more restless. If Hillary’s USA comes to everyone’s doorsteps and demands all of our firearms based on her presidency backed by her Supreme Court, backed (and seated) by a Democrat Congress, do we condemn some who refuse entry by LE, and subsequently get into a violent confrontation? If not, what’s the difference between that and this? (Surely you don’t advocate just declaring BOHICA and turning in our weapons in HillaryWorld!?)

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    #50272
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Have I followed this even half as close as you, nope. Bluntly, I don’t care to either. I have two elk to harvest, ammo to load, food to store and more.

    My personal experience has been limited to two hysterical sites where a single arrowhead was found. The harassment and torment that followed for the farmer who just wanted to plant his crops was amazing.
    When it was all done, no relics, no artifacts and a family lost the farm that had been in the family for a century. It’s still farmland and being plowed, just by a consortium now.

    As to my feelings towards LE, I’ll be the first to drag out the noose for the guilty, but there has to be evidence not rumor and supposition. Been there, done that.

    In this instance, the protesters have been using BLM tactics, like the bs story about the 11yo shot by a sniper. Lies, damned lies and more.

    In this whole mess I have a bias, definitely. I live in oilfield country. My paycheck is paid with oilfield dollars. My neighbors work in the oilfields. Who am I going to believe, the pipeline welder back for a week off or some yahoo who’s resorting to criminal activity?

    As to the firearms and other things, bohica doesn’t cover it.
    “I start fightin’ a war, I guarantee, you’ll see somethin’ new. “

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 4 weeks ago by Whirlibird Whirlibird.
    #50407
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    Regardless of how one feels about the oil pipeline, it would seem at least questionable on top of the other “odd” law enforcement and court behaviors documented above, that a state would be borrowing upwards of $10 million to support a private enterprise. Yes, there is protest, and yes there is illegal activity by some, but the vast majority of protesters have not been destructive or violent. Since when does a state borrow that much money to serve the needs of a private company? How many other issues within ND have gone unfunded for far too long, yet a pipeline with questionable safety going forward is worth a single state’s massive spending to support. Where’s the equivalent for the far more destructive events in Portland, OR, this week (both in terms of funding and charges against protesters? If DAPL protesters had hauled a private citizen in favor of the pipeline out of his car and mercilessly beat him in ND, there would be no expense or effort spared to arrest and severely prosecute him. Contrast that with the non-response in Chicago’s similar case. As they say, follow the money….

    Again – this is not a comment about the rightness or wrongness of the pipeline. It’s about massive government overreach and blatant illegal power displays, both at the state and federal level, in an issue that would seem to be out of proportion, given the many other pressing needs in the nation. Courts notifying defendents of actions immediately upon filing, resulting in destruction of evidence? Federal banning of any but law enforcement aircraft (even drones) in a small, out of the way area in one state, thereby stopping widespread media coverage of the largely peaceful protests? Borrowing of 7-digit money to shut down this single event, in a state that can ill-afford that kind of expenditure? Something’s really wrong here, even if one is for the pipeline. And remember: if it can happen there, it can happen anywhere the government doesn’t want you to do something – even protect your own rights.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    #50412
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    The $10+ million was borrowed for LE overtime. For the security of everyone, protesters and pipeliners. And at $25-35 an hour, that gets eaten up quickly.

    As to the past, it’s dead and gone.
    Much like the blacks demanding reparations for slavery, when they themselves weren’t a slave, no one they know was ever a slave, etc.
    The Indians may have been treated like chattel in the past, OK. Does that give them a bye or special privileges? How about the Irish, slaves before the blacks?

    This isn’t 1890. Not even 1990. Where is the line in the sand drawn? Fifty years ago, and what happened, isn’t today.
    Are we going to continue to project blame?
    If so, are we going to keep blaming Serbia and Bosnia for the 6 assassins who killed Ferdinand and the subsequent World War?
    Or the white Saffers under 30? Even a 30 yo Saffer who was 7 when apartheid fell is blamed today despite the fact that they were a child at the time. Or the whites in Rhodesia? Today the whites there are still to blame, despite no control since 1982.

    Back to the protesters, go ahead and protest. I may believe and sympathize with your cause. Right up until the first bottle is thrown.
    When the criminal activity starts, that’s where the peaceful protest ends.

    Same with the anti Trump protesters. Keep to your designated areas and paths, stay civil, and you can knock yourself out.
    Start blocking businesses, harassing citizens, creating a mess that someone else has to clean up, and we have a problem.
    Start the criminal behavior, you are a criminal not a protester.
    When did it become acceptable to burn vehicles that aren’t your own? To damage public property?

    #50413
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    There is a very basic principle here that is being totally ignored. Virtually every one of those issues is irrelevant to the case at hand. When you or I go to buy a piece of property, money is spent on a title search to determine if the property actually has a clear title to sell. Some anomaly 50, 100, or more years ago could potentially halt the sale and transfer of the property. Some title searches go back to the original land grant from the US government (i.e. no statue of limitations). What happened in Serbia, Bosnia, the African slave trade (nothing more than kidnapping), etc., has nothing to do with this issue.

    I’ll make it really simple. I’ll (for the purposes of argument only) allow for the Doctrine of Discovery promoted by Chief Justice John Marshall. That way we can just start with treaties to which FedGov was a party. Those are legal documents just as much as a land grant some white family’s ancestors received from FedGov 100+ years ago. Once granted, passage of that time is irrelevant. Yet treaty encroachments have been protested continuously, and the far more powerful US government has forcefully prevailed virtually every time – simply because there were biggerstronger.. I mentioned the 1851 and 1868 Ft. Laramie Treaties in an earlier post above. How did they become irrelevant here?

    You or I would have clear title to property honored, yet Indians have no such protection. I fail to see how that’s even remotely appropriate, legally, ethically, or morally. But even disregarding that as well, the overreach by law enforcement, strong and active suppression of journalists attempting to cover the story, and the complicity by other so-called journalistic outlets in selectively covering the stories, should be appalling to any student of the Constitution. It seems not to matter unless or until it’s suddenly on one’s own doorstep with a battering ram and black-suited figures in full combat gear ready to break in and steal your own rights at will. Legal title to land is just that – except in the case of Indians, apparently. I stand on that.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    #50415
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    The Indians don’t have legal title to the land as such, as I understand it. The reservation is still .gov property, hence the BLM police and federal law as opposed to local LE.

    Suppression of the drones and journalists, I can understand, first to cool tempers down. What happens when someone with an agenda is being filmed? They grandstand and push things to get a reaction. Been there, done that.
    No journalists pressing the issue, cooler heads prevail.

    Secondly, your right to know does not trump the right of the officers to safety. Much like those situations such as a bank robbery where the news is live streaming what the police are doing, it endangers the officers as their locations are now known by the bad guys.

    And as an aside, if memory serves, I could be wrong but, that part of the pipeline follows the same path as a natural gas pipeline already in place. Any site would have already been disturbed or destroyed.

    We aren’t going to agree with each other on this. It happens.

    As to the EPA and Corps of Engineers, after the fiasco with our local welder, have zero credibility, just like the FBI. They will say what they are told. And with Zero on the protesters side, well…..

    #50416
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    The Indians don’t have legal title to the land as such, as I understand it. The reservation is still .gov property, hence the BLM police and federal law as opposed to local LE.

    No, they don’t – it’s no longer recognized by FedGov as reservation land, and that’s at least one of the issues! My point is that FedGov hasn’t kept their agreement since day-1 of so-called treaties.

    I’ll agree we aren’t going to agree on this, though we both fundamentally agree that FedGov (and most StateGovs) are in the bag for the big dollar special interests, and We the People don’t have a chance if our issue conflicts with the special interests.

    But for clarification on two points: a major issue for the Indians (and others involved in the protest) is water, not solely artifacts and grave sites. Plus, Zero is certainly not “on the protesters side.” He has done a masterful job (as usual) of hoodwinking the Indians into thinking that by virtue of naming a few special plots of land around the country as “protected” (such as Bears Ears), he’s on their side. But those areas were in out-of-the way places that aren’t expected to produce any significant mineral resources. And the State of Utah’s objections are about as important to Obama as the bug on my wall. Like Hillary, he said some things that sounded good to the less-aware Indians, but their leaders that really understand what’s going on clearly understood Obama’s and Hillary’s weasel words. He’s been virtually silent on the response against the protesters, and certainly did nothing through DOJ to redress the flagrant Court violation over the Labor Day weekend, or call off the FAA intervention. All he did was request the Corps of Engineers and others to seek a possible alternative routing, etc, etc., etc. They’ve continued to press forward to the dammed up portion of the Missouri River, with no effort to find another route. And that comes back to the other point – this is not just about artifacts or burial sites, though those are certainly sensitive issues. A major point of the protesters is the issue of water safety. Gas pipelines are far less of an issue in the case of a break, than are oil pipelines. But the media isn’t reporting that either – just a bunch of angry injuns raising heck in the middle of nowhere against a poor contractor just trying to do their jobs – at least that’s what most Americans know if they even know there’s an issue, thanks to the (non)news status of it.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    #50420
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10
    #50421
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    WB, I’m a bit confused. Earlier,

    Have I followed this even half as close as you, nope. Bluntly, I don’t care to either. I have two elk to harvest, ammo to load, food to store and more.

    In my last post I agreed we’re probably not going to agree on this, and was willing to largely let go of it as an issue here. I merely made clarifying comments on a couple of points, and left it at that. I’ve read a great deal more since, but chosen to leave it alone here as I said I’d do.

    Now I see that you’ve posted another strong piece in opposition to the Tribes’ position. Ok, by itself no problem. But whether there are some valid points in that article (and there may well be), they’re still only half of the story. And worse, there’s so much wrong with that article that it cannot be considered any more objective than many of the Indian-generated stories. Therefore, that amounts to an attempt to use emotion to sway logic, and I ain’t buyin’ it. I don’t care one stinkin’ bit what Jesse Jackson has to say on the issue. He’s so far beyond irrelevant it’s not worth commenting on. And a number of statements about tribal absence simply do not square with other documented facts (including some I included in previous posts).

    I also note that you chose not to respond to multiple points I made, preferring instead to simply present another strong article that takes a highly one-sided position, after saying you “bluntly … don’t care to” research the issues.

    Is this a one-sided issue? No. Nothing generally is. I simply do not buy (with strong and solid evidence backing my position) that this is as one-sided as you or the author of that last column seem to want to make it out to be. And I’m not here to get solidly “into it” with people (you included) I largely consider my brothers, and whose back’s I’d have where everything’s on the line, and who’d hopefully have my back as well in such situations. Therefore, I’m done discussing this issue with you, even to the point of not pointing out the specific fallacies in the article. It’s not worth the argument.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    • This reply was modified 6 months, 2 weeks ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    #50423
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Sorry, op-ed that I found interesting, not because of the one sided-ness but because the author seemingly went out if his way to obfuscate much of what is out there.

    I was going to add more but didn’t get the opportunity as I had to go replace a rather obscenely large pool pump while writing the post and was forced to stop there.

    Finis.

    #50425
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    Just seeing that you’d posted the article, without comment, I thought you agreed with it. Thanks for the clarification. No problem.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

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