Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 56 total)
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  • #40871
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus, On your story of turning in the boss that sexually assaulted a women that is not something that many men have, you know that. The problem is that. 1 out of 100 men have that type of cojones. So since we know this there is only one way to get to the bottom of the bad cops, that is as many cameras as we can, body, in the cars, in the police dept, and voice if we can too. There should be laws that the police has no right to take anyone’s cellphone if they are video taping them.

    I do not think we will be about to change the institution so the best is to keep video taping them. The good police officers will be OK with this.

    On your “They will fight tooth and nail to retain their power.” That will be the biggest problem to reform.

    #40872
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    2A

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    #40879
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    mmm….when I get like this I have to back off and think for a few seconds.
    Police are not something that was sh** on the sidewalk and hatched by the sun.
    They are just different versions of me and you. They are a product of their education.
    Change the education to change the product.
    Robin

    I disagree Robin.

    Though education seems to have a mitigating effect on many people, your position seems to be (and correct me if I’m wrong) is that Nurture trumps Nature.
    I’m of the exact opposite viewpoint – Nature trumps Nurture.

    You can’t hire everyone fitting the same psychological profile, then wonder “what happened?” when Bad Things start happening.

    Even if you change the psychological screening, it won’t be 100% effective – one of the defining traits of the psychopath or sociopath is the ability to lie smoothly and convincingly – even to the point of passing a polygraph. Those will always slip through, and you don’t find out about it until much later when they are entrenched in the system and afforded all the system’s protections and privileges… given the crim-justice systems habit of settling everything out of court, these psychopaths and sociopaths are recycled into the mix… yes, eventually they are gotten rid of, but not before massive damage is done..

    Edit: I have to say that, even though I do not have any proof and this is just my opinion, I think “bad” cops are not gotten rid of because they are “bad”, but because they end up costing their municipality great piles of money, damage to the department’s reputation and, of course, that old bugaboo Liability. It is done from a point of pure self-interest, not because the officer is inherently “bad” and should be gotten rid of on principal alone….

    Do egregious stuff, cost your Elites money and damage their reputation and draw undue attention to them? You’re gone.

    Do egregious stuff, but fly under the radar or be exonerated by a panel of 3 of your buddies? Eh… here, have a desk job for 6 months while this blows over…

    Could be just my perspective – along with me being a pessimist and a cynic… but also could be reality.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40881
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    There are many reasons “bad” cops are tolerated.
    In the case of my last department, it goes like this.

    Sgt promoted to chief because the rest of the applicants backed out or refused.
    (Incompetent and lazy to a criminal level literally) But the city council chose him.

    My replacement was hired despite issues in the background. And he was making up for the past and proving to be a very good cop. Right up to the point he fell off the wagon, a past work injury and pain meds ruined him.
    The DAs office is still considering charges.
    He quit and can never be employed in a LE capacity again.

    Why wasn’t he fired or charged by the chief who was investigating him?
    Too embarassing as he had done the background and hand picked him

    Why nothing yet from the DAs office?
    The chiefs incompetence doesn’t help, but they have to review every case he touched. Every case becomes suspect and they have to decide if justice is better served by releasing and possibly retrying every case he touched at that department let alone previous ones.
    Do you let a rapist go because someone becomes addicted to pain pills from a back injury?

    The chief? Still doing nothing despite being legally bound to.
    The city won’t replace him until he costs them too much money or they are held accountable for his inaction and are held liable.
    It would make them look bad, they chose him.

    There is nothing simple in LE, nothing cut and dried.

    #40888
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    There is no such thing as 100% , bad people will be bad people , but body cams , constitutional rights education , better and periodic psychological screening , and perhaps more rotation from street to desk , will help greatly . However the bottom line is , we the people need to stand up to the bullies when needed , and not alone ……..but in mass . That really does work . I keep bringing up the Bundy Ranch , but that showed all americans that we still do indeed have the power , the feds had a choice : spark a civil war , or stand down and find other , less Stalinist ways do get their money from that family . Things like that , where americans make a stand with arms , may be exactly what is needed in some cases . You look at how our constitution is written , and you will find many checks and balances all through it , the 2nd amendment was put in there , deliberately as a check measure . They were correct to do that . It always amazes me about how astute these men were , for the time period they lived in .

    #40891
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    There are many reasons “bad” cops are tolerated.
    In the case of my last department, it goes like this.

    Sgt promoted to chief because the rest of the applicants backed out or refused.
    (Incompetent and lazy to a criminal level literally) But the city council chose him.

    My replacement was hired despite issues in the background. And he was making up for the past and proving to be a very good cop. Right up to the point he fell off the wagon, a past work injury and pain meds ruined him.
    The DAs office is still considering charges.
    He quit and can never be employed in a LE capacity again.

    Why wasn’t he fired or charged by the chief who was investigating him?
    Too embarassing as he had done the background and hand picked him

    Why nothing yet from the DAs office?
    The chiefs incompetence doesn’t help, but they have to review every case he touched. Every case becomes suspect and they have to decide if justice is better served by releasing and possibly retrying every case he touched at that department let alone previous ones.
    Do you let a rapist go because someone becomes addicted to pain pills from a back injury?

    The chief? Still doing nothing despite being legally bound to.
    The city won’t replace him until he costs them too much money or they are held accountable for his inaction and are held liable.
    It would make them look bad, they chose him.

    There is nothing simple in LE, nothing cut and dried.

    Whirl,

    Might be my cynicism showing, but the turd promoted to Chief was promoted probably because the Council thought they could control him – he’d be their little monkey-boy. Put a strong, independent leader in a position of authority? One who might (GASP!) do the right thing on his own instead of doing their bidding? God forbid!

    Doom on them, his incompetence outweighed his laziness.

    Do you let a rapist go because someone becomes addicted to pain pills from a back injury?

    Yes. Yes you do. Because the alternative – letting someone rot in jail until the jail rots on top of him, based on the work of a pill-head and a boozer (worse, a pill head and a boozer who was concealing his pill addiction and boozing while in a position of authority and public trust) – is wrong. Even if the Bad Guy is guilty as sin and it will cost a ton of money retrying the case, you retry the case. Because under our “Justice” (shyeah) System, everyone is entitled to a fair shake. Even scumbags. And based on what you just said, that didn’t happen.

    The rest of your post backstops my previous post – that nothing will be done until a mountain of taxpayer money is spent, someone gets embarrassed (damage to their reputation/credibility) or enough unwanted attention is drawn to the Elites (in this case, the Council responsible for hiring Chief Lazy Incompetent)…

    SSDD…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40899
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Under their thumb? Entirely,
    But he was literally the last option without starting the hiring process over.
    The other three candidates, one changed his mind mid hire, one pulled his app, and one refused. To not lose face, they hired do-nothing.
    And if the rumors are right, things are not looking good for him, complaints at the state level for his inaction.

    As to the pill popper, that came after the rapist was jailed, back when he was a good cop, before the injury.
    But because his word is now mud, how far back do they go?
    Its a tough call, which way is justice best served?

    The other cops? Just trying to do their jobs despite these idiots, one quit and went elsewhere as soon as his contract was up, to get away from this, another is caught between a rock and a hard place because of health/family.

    I can’t condemn the entire group because of a few idiots, most of the cops I’ve known, I’ve been proud to have served with, much like you and your military bretheren, most are good. The exceptions ruin it for the rest.

    Would you like those you served with honorably lumped in with Major Hassan? Or the Navy shipyard shooter? Or Bowe Bergdahl? Its a disrespect to those who have and continue to do right.

    Tolik, I had a lengthy response but it vanished into the nethersphere and I don’t feel like typing it all again on a tablet, so let me just say I agree with your last post entirely.

    We just need to be sure who the enemy really is.

    #40903
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    From what I understand , there is a grassroots organization formed by ex-cops , that were disillusioned with what they saw . The goal is to provide a place for cops to rat out abuses they see by other cops , without fear of retribution .

    #40908
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    In my case, those involved are either out of the business and never to return or being actively investigated so telling stories out of church would do nothing but harm at this point.

    Just like regular cases, investigating many of these ‘crimes’ doesn’t happen overnight and rushing them can tank the entire case before it gets serious.

    Rushing to trial, you miss critical information and make mistakes.
    Much like the 6 Baltimore officers and the charges against them, there are a number of mistakes already that threaten to tank the case and we’ll get to watch Baltimore burn.

    The old saying, take your time and do it right or do it again.
    Unfortunately, there is no doing this again. We are talking about lives, careers ruined, all to appease those who cannot be appeased, a lynch mob.

    At this point it doesn’t matter if they’re innocent, unless they’re found guilty Baltimore and more will burn their own homes down in protest.
    And even then, that will not appease them.

    #40910
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    From what I understand , there is a grassroots organization formed by ex-cops , that were disillusioned with what they saw . The goal is to provide a place for cops to rat out abuses they see by other cops , without fear of retribution .

    Tolik, That is one of the keys to have a better system in place for cops to be able to tell on the bad cops without fear of retribution and to have body cameras, car cameras not just in front of the car but one were we can see the back too, have many cameras in the police dept and on all buses and vans.

    #40911
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Would you like those you served with honorably lumped in with Major Hassan? Or the Navy shipyard shooter? Or Bowe Bergdahl? Its a disrespect to those who have and continue to do right.

    I will tell you this.

    Most times, most soldiers do the right thing. Most times.

    But, like I said above, moral courage is the most precious and rare type that exists. To speak up – loudly – when something doesn’t smell right and to make a stand on principal. Knowing that it means your end.

    Think back to Hurricane Katrina. All those troops – and cops – that went house to house, kicking in doors, body slamming old ladies and stealing people’s legally owned, constitutionally protected firearms?

    How many stood up and said “No, I refuse to do this because it is illegal, immoral and unlawful? Exactly ONE small unit of National Guardsmen, and NO cops. They nominated a Staff Sergeant as their representative and sent him to their commander. He informed the Captain that under no circumstances would any of them participate in rounding up and confiscating legally-owned firearms.

    They were quietly moved out of the area and replaced with another unit that would follow orders unquestioningly.

    Sad to say, but I think that most soldiers – as well as most police officers – are moral cowards. The ‘good’ ones – defined as the ones who are not actively “bad” – keep quiet in the face of illegal, immoral, unlawful actions – thereby aiding and abetting them – because they know their careers and retirements depend on their keeping quiet. Speak up, and your career is over.

    Funny how only senior leadership only finds the moral courage to speak up about the wrongs that they see when their careers are almost over, and they are so close to retirement that it cannot be taken away?

    Either speak up, or you are part of the problem. And no less to blame than the ones who are actively “bad”…

    I assume you have seen that outrage about Army Cadets being forced to wear red, high-heeled shoes and forced to walk in them, in uniform? Supposedly to “teach” the male cadets some bullsh*^ “lesson” about their female counterparts…

    It was humiliating and degrading, as well as being illegal. But, because some female “general” in charge of the ROTC program said they had to do it, they were threatened with a bad OER if they refused.

    They couldn’t even find the moral courage to say “No” to wearing red, high heeled shoes and submitted to the degradation and humiliation when they were threatened with a puny piece of paper… yet, these are supposed to be our future “leaders”? I am embarrassed and ashamed…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40913
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    Well Said !!!!!!
    I have been fired for standing up …………did I care ?
    No …….I can always get another job .

    #42120
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous
    Survivalist

    We just need to be sure who the enemy really is.

    Amen.

    I witnessed the downfall of a very old, very established, and very decent forum over just this kind of discussion – where people of otherwise like mind took shots at “their own.” Reading the posts (and not even needing to read between lines) there is no one here saying that we should always be 100% comfortable dealing with LE, that we have nothing to fear. Nor do I see anyone claiming things are just the same today as they were 50 years ago, in terms of trusting cops. From the newbie on the block, please don’t let this forum go down the same road – there’s far too much like-mindedness here to let a difference in perspective on a single issue turn brother against brother. This doesn’t have to be a “sides-taking” issue here, where an otherwise spirited discussion has to turn personal.

    Not long ago, our neighbors were out of town for a long weekend. A car pulled up with four 20-somethings in it. They got out, knocked on the front door, found no one at home, and proceeded around the back of the house. They were casually but reasonably decently dressed, any “profiling” wouldn’t have raised any bright red flags, but it just seemed odd. So, I went out my back door, concealed myself sufficiently to where I could observe the back of the neighbor’s house, and it appeared the foursome were inside. I called police.

    When police arrived, they stopped in front of my house just moments after the foursome had exited the house and driven around the corner. I went out to meet the police, and promptly informed one of the four cops that I was carrying, in case they happened to notice it (on my own property), and stated that I was merely informing them so as to avoid any discomfort on their part. I was sincerely thanked by the officer I informed, and not hassled by any of them (nor did I detect any discomfort on any of their parts). We then immediately proceeded to discuss where the foursome had gone. They were quickly located, and it turned out they had a key, and were there to check on the dog (that our neighbors neglected to inform us had been left indoors for the weekend!). No problem, no hassle, good cops.

    But then just weeks ago, I saw a radar cop on a motorcycle in an area I’ve often wondered about with regard to the speed limit (without going into detail, it appears to be one speed for almost a mile in one direction, and another speed in the opposite direction). Perfect opportunity to get clarification, I thought! I pulled in and proceeded to ask him what was the enforced limit in the questionable direction, and explained my reason for the question, based on very confusing signage. I was aggressively and immediately accused of interfering with him or trying to start an argument! I went into it expecting the old “good cop” response with a reasonable answer, followed by my “thank you,” and his “no problem” response. That’s what most of my many decades of experience has been through the years – no intent to hassle, no expectation of being hassled. But suddenly this was a scary situation, complete with hassle and a bad cop. Based on the highly inappropriate response, I began to expect to be taken into custody on some bogus charge, based on his off-the-wall response to me. Shocked? Unfortunately not anymore, but I simply refuse to lump all LE into that category, even knowing that it’s an increasingly larger category (particularly with many former deployed Soldiers going into LE, with all their issues). But I’ll still start out with every LE (and former LE) officer with the opening assumption the s/he’s decent.

    So with respect to this thread, in the words of that great philosopher Rodney King, can’t we all just get along here? (Ol’ Rodney died just about three blocks from my old house….) My initial newbie impression here is quite comfortable, or I would not have finally joined. But this particular thread brings back uncomfortable memories of several decent people being driven out of an otherwise nice place to hang out together. That place finally ceased to exist after well over a decade, with some great people over the years (some here today, thankfully, and one of whom pointed me here finally).

    Georgia Saint

    #47409
    Profile photo of
    Anonymous
    Survivalist

    While this thread has been inactive for quite a while, and it went in many directions during its course, I believe the basic premise is still – if not even more – relevant and worth discussion. What prompts this on my part is my growing anger over the mis-reporting of the Apple vs. FBI “feud” concerning the now infamous cell phone.

    I’m sure it’s still out there somewhere, but I wasn’t willing to spend all morning looking for it again. However, I saw the actual court order aimed at Apple, and it isn’t what’s being reported in the media (no surprise). This is being framed as Apple just trying to make a marketing event out of the issue, and Apple being more worried about selling iPhones than national security. In fact, Apple HAS proposed to continue (they already did earlier) working with the government in providing the contents of the San Bernardino terrorists’ iPhone. What the court order says is that Apple is to give the government the MEANS with which to access the contents of the phone – which amounts to a master key to every iPhone everywhere in the world. The government publicly denies this, but I’ve seen and read the court order – it’s short, and any 5th grader with at least 3 digits in his or her IQ could understand it. It’s exactly what Apple says it is – a government order allowing the feds to have a means to get into the phone (and therefore any iPhone) themselves, rather than allowing Apple to develop the program to get in, provide the information on the phone to the government, and thereby leaving the security of everyone else’s iPhones alone. Apple is willing to work out such a solution from their own statement that I read (if accurate), but that is unacceptable to the government – they want to be able to access ALL iPhones, and blatantly misrepresent what the court order clearly means.

    Enter The Donald. Trump is now calling for a boycott of Apple products until Apple bows to the government.

    My preparedness plans? IF Apple prevails, our Androids (very insecure) are going in the trash, and we’ll both convert to iPhones. If Apple does not prevail and the government gets the keys to the kingdom and every door in it, then it doesn’t really matter. We’ll continue using our Androids at 3G speed, since we don’t do a lot more than make calls and check Google Maps. It’s the principle of it, if nothing else.

    Another reason not to support Donald Trump, and another reason to support a company that will go toe-to-toe with Uncle Sam in support of the 4th Amendment. If it helps Apple’s profits, good for them. We’ll help them with two purchases and flip off Google at the same time (whichever meaning – or both – of that term someone chooses to infer from it).

    So yes – I concur with the title of this thread. If the cops (FBI in this case) rule, the Bill of Rights is a worthless addition to the already mortally wounded Constitution.

    P.S. Note that use of the iCloud for storage is NOT secure. Apple already helped the government access what was saved to iCloud by the San Berdoo terrorists. But they stopped saving things to the iCloud a month before their attack, thus the belief that there could be a wealth of information inside the phone itself (which is in government hands – and that’s why THEY want the program to crack it). Always be aware of the personal security aspects of ALL electronic (or even written) documents, databases, etc.

    #47416
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10
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