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  • #40715
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Police officers are more likely to be struck by lightning than be held financially accountable for their actions.—Law professor Joanna C. Schwartz (paraphrased)

    Interesting article by John W. Whitehead over at The Burning Platform.

    http://www.theburningplatform.com/2015/05/05/in-a-cop-culture-the-bill-of-rights-doesnt-amount-to-much/

    Some highlights:

    – New York City pays out 38 million dollars a year, just to settle lawsuits brought against the officers, in effect, cleaning up behind those who ‘Protect and Serve’…

    – Chicago had to take out a 100 million dollar loan in 2013, just to pay off lawsuits against Chi-town Police. The city’s payout for 2014 was estimated to be in the same ballpark, especially with cases pending such as the one involving the man who was reportedly sodomized by a police officer’s gun in order to force him to “cooperate.”

    – a study published in the NYU Law Review reveals that 99.8% of the monies paid in settlements and judgments in police misconduct cases never come out of the officers’ own pockets, even when state laws require them to be held liable. Moreover, these officers rarely ever have to pay for their own legal defense.

    It’s worth a read.

    Be advised, if you go – Harsh Language Warning.

    The Burning Platform is sort of the Wild West of the Internet – no filters on language in the comments and those who fight amongst themselves on the site – bitter enemies – will close ranks and crucify you if you complain about it. Over there, free speech means just that – you can say anything you want, any way you want, and they take it seriously.

    Still, some good stuff gets posted over there from time to time.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40722
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    What one has to remember is that many if not most of these lawsuits are just paid summarily, because its cheaper to just pay them off than to take them to trial.

    A $10, 000 lawsuit that will take $75, 000 to defend against, pay it out.
    In the right or not.

    The city of Phoenix is infamous for not training its officers past the academy, its cheaper to pay out the lack of training lawsuits than to put the entire department through training.

    Yes there are those in the LE community that do stupid and criminal things, and they do get held accountable, it just takes a while.

    But to condemn the entire group is akin to blaming all preppers for the criminal actions of a few.

    There are always four fingers pointing back when you point and lay blame.

    #40727
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    I have to agree with Whirlibird on these lawsuits. This happens with lawsuits on doctors too! Many doctors get a lawsuit only to find out that there insurance settled the lawsuit and the doctor never had a chance to go to court to show that he or she did not do something wrong. Then the doctor has this on there record. The insurance companies settle every lawsuit they can 10 cents on the dollar, they never go to court.

    When it comes to the police or even any city, state government agency it is all insured and the insurance companies settle almost all lawsuits. It is good for the insurance companies but not for the police officers since by the insurance companies settling almost all lawsuits we the people will never know who is good and who is bad. Money rules these private insurance companies. The way this should be done is all cases should go to court period.

    This way we can find the good police officers from the bad police officers. In every profession there are good and bad people. The only differences is that a police officer is given lots of powers which is why we need to add more tools like body video cameras, cameras in the cars, vans, and police buildings. This will get the bad police officers to leave this job.

    #40732
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Both of you.. .

    Neither one of you read the article, didja? Be honest.

    I know it’s cheaper to settle than to take a case to court, which is why cash-strapped people don’t take cases to court. If there isn’t a 100% chance of winning, then they are liable for court costs. The vast majority never make it to court because the folks who filed the suit don’t want to take the chance…

    The other thing is that both of your remarks are predicated on the assumption that the cops are indeed the “good guys” and did nothing wrong…. which is garbage. It is perfectly possible for a cop to be bad and be guilty as sin. Yes, yes, presumption of innocence and all that. I know. But read on…

    However, since the case gets settled, the bad cop keeps getting recycled back into the mix… “help us find the bad cops”? You’re kidding, right?

    Human Rights Watch notes that taxpayers actually pay three times for officers who repeatedly commit abuses: “once to cover their salaries while they commit abuses; next to pay settlements or civil jury awards against officers; and a third time through payments into police ‘defense’ funds provided by the cities.”

    Free?, “insurance companies” don’t pay out settlements. The taxpaying citizen does. The municipality taxes us and papers us with reams – oceans – of tickets to generate funds with which they use to pay the insurance premiums. So what if the insurance company pays off the poor bastard who got the wrong end of a cop? Just raise taxes a notch or send out your enforcer goons to write more tickets, generate more income, milk you like the cash cow you are…

    Plus, there’s these wonderful Law Enforcement Bill of Rights that various states have adopted – written by police unions. Cop does something egregious, and you cannot hold them to the same standards as citizens are. They’re special, don’tcha see? Their badges grant special dispensation. They’re better than us, poor proles that we are…

    They get a 10-day “cooling down” period, are questioned by only one or two of their buddy officers, plenty of food and drinks and bathroom breaks… no abusive behavior or intense questioning allowed.

    From the article:

    Not only are officers given a 10-day “cooling-off period” during which they cannot be forced to make any statements about the incident, but when they are questioned, it must be “for a reasonable length of time, at a reasonable hour, by only one or two investigators (who must be fellow policemen), and with plenty of breaks for food and water.”

    – If a department decides to pursue a complaint against an officer, the department must notify the officer and his union.

    – The officer must be informed of the complainants, and their testimony against him, before he is questioned.

    – During questioning, investigators may not harass, threaten, or promise rewards to the officer, as interrogators not infrequently do to civilian suspects.

    – Bathroom breaks are assured during questioning.

    – In Maryland, the officer may appeal his case to a “hearing board,” whose decision is binding, before a final decision has been made by his superiors about his discipline. The hearing board consists of three of the suspected offender’s fellow officers.

    – In some jurisdictions, the officer may not be disciplined if more than a certain number of days (often 100) have passed since his alleged misconduct, which limits the time for investigation.

    – Even if the officer is suspended, the department must continue to pay salary and benefits, as well as the cost of the officer’s attorney.

    But, if a citizen is arrested on suspicion of the exact same thing, what do the cops do?

    Yeah…. you are subjected to all the behavior and abuse their own Unions forbid being done to them. Including lying to your face, failing to show you evidence, showing you false evidence (you know it happens Whirl, don’t even go there), etc…

    And I’m tired of seeing people twist themselves into all sorts of contortions trying to justify this garbage by saying “Well, the vast majority of cops are good cops”.

    Oh? And you know this exactly how? You tell yourself that because the alternative is too monstrous to think about? If the vast majority of cops are good cops, then why all the lawsuits? They can’t possibly all be frivolous. And if that is true, then what percentage have merit? Does that thought bother you? It should. If it doesn’t, then you’re either a sociopath, a statist thug or you’re a part of the crime syndicate…

    What syndicate?

    Police, district attorneys, the courts, prison systems… it’s the biggest crime syndicate on the planet.

    I’d love to see someone apply RICO statutes to the behavior of cops and their higher ups… I’m betting a good living can be made – a doctorate earned and a career made – just studying that one subject.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40734
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus,
    I don’t see how enough honest people can get elected at the same time, appoint the appropriate people into supervisory positions, clean house and restore both the legal system and restore police forces to proper functionality. We are losing on the demographics battle. Unless the method the Senate is selected is changed back to State Legislatures we will continue going down the tube. As long as the culture war remains a war of words this is what we got. Unless you have the answers?

    #40744
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    74,

    I have suggestions. They’re workable fixes if we only possess the will to implement them.

    1. Abolish all “Law Enforcement Bill of Rights”. Period. Cops should be held to the same standards as any citizen – for they ARE citizens, same as us. Shiny badges do not grant extra rights or special dispensation.

    2. De-militarize the cops. They do not need armored vehicles, tanks, machine-guns, chemical weapons, etc.

    3. ALL cops should be required to take Ethics classes, classes on the Constitution, Civics, etc. To be repeated periodically. And just because we don’t do something, doesn’t mean it’s not a good idea.

    (Example: German cops are highly respected professionals and they literally spend YEARS becoming a cop. Not some community college “Crim-Justice” degree, then a few months in the Academy and then you’re on the road. They do it the RIGHT way… they are the caretakers and protectors of their way of life, they take that seriously, but they also know they are not “superior” to the citizenry. There’s very little “us vs them” attitude.)

    4. Hold cops accountable for their actions. No more “Thin Blue Line”. No more using the municipality as a piggy bank when they screw up. They screw up, then the individual officers should be liable.

    5. Body cameras and cameras in the vehicles. Mandatory. More than we have now. And not accessible by the officer or his or her first line super. One of the things people are being told to do now is when you are cuffed and put in a vehicle, to lay down on the seat. Why? Because of the practice of “screening”. If you sit up, the cop will drive very fast, then slam on the brakes, which causes the person in the back seat to slam face-first into the screen separating the front seat from the back. Since you are handcuffed, you can’t stop from face-planting. Oops, sorry about that…

    6. No more drop guns. Cop defenders and supporters will deny this all day, but everyone knows that cops have drop guns.

    7. No more “touch” to the back of the vehicle. The origin of this was so that the officer could ‘prove’ that he dealt with the individual in the vehicle he pulled over. But cops realized that they could abuse this, like everything else. Rub some marijuana or coke residue on their hands, then touch the back of the car. “Oh, I smelled drugs coming from the car”. Drug dog alerts on the cop’s hand-touch, giving them probable cause to search the car without a warrant…

    8. No more no-knock raids. No more blank warrants. No more SWATTING people for stuff like “suspicion of selling unpasteurized milk” or a card game or fill-in-the-blank… we used to laugh at backwards, banana-Republic or Communist countries that sent in their ninja-clad goons with face masks, etc, black-bagging people in the middle of the night. A coward and a thief will hide their face. The righteous man does not.

    9. Abolish the (un) PATRIOT Act, the NDAA, the 1033 Program, etc.

    Dude, if I finished this post and put everything into it I wanted, it would run way, way into overtime…. you’re on the right track with having state legislatures appoint Senators, like it’s supposed to be – (Congressmen are elected to represent the people. Senators are appointed to represent the States. The Feds have their own representation. Direct election of Senators has weakened the States and done nothing for the citizenry).

    What needs to happen is the entire crime syndicate of the criminal justice system needs to be deconstructed, purged and then reassembled. No more “private, for-profit” prisons. No more “qualified immunity”. No more lots of things…

    Do we have the will to do it? Probably not. Which means things will continue on, until they cannot.

    And on that day, a great deal of blood will be spilled. And that is a damn shame.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40745
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Let me first say that not all cops are union.
    Not all departments have the same standards as those cited here.
    Nor do they follow the same criteria.

    10 day cooling off period, wouldn’t that be nice.

    Again you lump all cops in together, all departments together, with no knowledge of policy and procedures for every department. You probably don’t know them for your lodal department(s).

    As to how I know most cops are good, I still have my old badge, commendation letters and thank yous from citizens. I’ve worn those shoes. Something you can’t say.

    As usual your vemon shows your hatred of cops in general, so be it.
    Rant away.

    #40747
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    “Which means things will continue on, until they cannot”. – Malgus

    Thats my point, your laundry list is great but anyone can make one, that’s not the part that needs doing. What has to be done is reset the government and bureaucratic agencies so the things on your list can be instituted. It took 100 years of progressive rule making to get us here. If it could be done it would take another 100 to fix it. We are nowhere near reversing the flow and it looks like time is running out. My question is how do you fix that?

    #40752
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Again you lump all cops in together, all departments together, with no knowledge of policy and procedures for every department. You probably don’t know them for your lodal department(s).

    Okay Whirl… since you seem to be speaking from a position of experience and are an authority on the matter, tell us what the policies and procedures are for every department.

    All 18,000 of them.

    Because that’s what you’re accusing me of “not knowing”…

    Local police departments make up more than two-thirds of the 18,000 state and local law enforcement agencies in the United States. – Bureau of Justice Statistics.

    http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=71

    Is your request answerable? Yes. But it will require weeks, if not months, of research to compile.

    Edit: And your accusation of “me lumping all cops together” is a flat-out lie. I specifically went out of my way to quote the article itself, which states that not ALL states have adopted a LEOBoR, with individual states and municipalities being called out.

    Does that sound like ALL? No, it doesn’t. In point of fact, you cannot cite one instance in this thread where I say the words “ALL cops” as an indictment of poor behavior. Know why? Because it’s not THERE because I didn’t say it. I went out of my way – on purpose – to not do that.

    Yet, you accuse me of it. Try reading what is written, instead of what you want to be written.

    Moving on.

    As to how I know most cops are good, I still have my old badge, commendation letters and thank yous from citizens. I’ve worn those shoes. Something you can’t say.

    Actually, I CAN say…

    I was a Military Police Sergeant for 5 years. I went MP on a re-enlistment. I still have my old badge, attaboys, commendations, medals, etc. And I will stack my experience up against yours any day of the week. Patrol, patrol super, desk sergeant, investigations, protective services….

    As usual your vemon shows your hatred of cops in general, so be it.
    Rant away.

    As usual, your support for the thuggery that passes for being a PEACE OFFICER shows your disdain for treating people decently. Every single time something egregious happens, you try to justify the existence (edit: should be “actions”) of all cops.

    These are not ‘isolated incidents’. It is everywhere, it is prevalent and the rules are set up as to give a free pass to the cops doing this sort of thing.

    And I notice that you do not condemn the above practices – even knowing that they encourage corruption and bad behavior via the lack of accountability for ‘bad’ cops. Instead, you issue an ad hominem attack against me personally instead of arguing your point on its own merit.

    I read somewhere an apt description of the situation.

    I know that 100% of Coral Snakes can bite and kill me if I pick them up.
    I also know that not 100% of Coral Snakes will bite me and kill me if I pick them up.
    But I’m not going to go around picking up Coral Snakes looking for the few who won’t.

    You say that most cops are “good” cops. But you have nothing to base that assumption on except the PR campaign that “cops are the good guys”.

    Whereas, given the sheer number of lawsuits – and how widespread they are – the data illustrates that the opposite appears to be the case.

    Your move.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40754
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    My question is how do you fix that?

    Answer: We can’t.

    Straight up. It has become institutionalized, and the only way to change that is to change the institutions. Which means replace the people in the institutions.

    Which means, if we started right now, this very second, it would still take us at a minimum 20 years to train up the generation of kids that will take over those institutions…

    Possible? Yep. Probable? Nope.

    Which means, unfortunately, we’re headed for one helluva train wreck. You don’t back a good and proud people into a corner, humiliate them, take away their ability to provide for themselves, send out swarms of enforcer goons to “eat out their very substance” and expect good things to happen…. or even have those people roll over and take it…

    Is this our own doing? Via apathy, yes. We allowed this to happen to us.

    Unfortunately, I think the situation will self-correct.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40771
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus, I do agree with you on many sides, but I do have some cops that are my friends and are very good with the public. They do tell me that there are many that are not very good and because of the unions and the system they do have a hard time turning in the bad cops.

    This is why I believe ALL police officers need to have body cameras, ALL cars, trucks and vans that are used by the police need to have cameras. Every room in the police dept needs to have cameras. This will stop 99% of the problem. There will always be the undercover police which can’t have a camera on there body that is why I said 99%. But this is one of the ways to stop the bad cops. My police friends agree with me on this.

    #40776
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    A piece of this that hasn’t been brought up is the legislative and administrative branches of govt. creating myriads of additional laws year after year. A single action seems to yield multiple laws that have been broken so that there surely will be something that the person can be found guilty of. I imagine most of us are breaking one law or another every day without even realizing it. I sometimes think the legal industry pushes this so as to ensure full employment for lawyers. Another aspect to this is that the public seems to demand more laws every time something bad happens, often yielding cures that are worse than the problem. Additionally, the way new laws are written often encompasses far more than the specific problem that was being addressed. Sometimes laws are written to solve imaginary problems. If gun laws are needed to reduce crime, how is it that VT which has never had gun licensing and which has only very minimal gun laws has the lowest violent crime rate in the nation? Shouldn’t we instead have gun battles raging on our streets for lack of such laws? In Massachusetts we could only burn brush in a very short time window each year so as to reduce the risk of brush fires starting. Cross the border into VT and we can burn year round (except for red flag days), yet fires aren’t any more of a problem here than in MA. Laws that solve imaginary problems. You might think this last example is ridiculous but I offer it up because I doubt many would ever dare question why such laws exist where they live. In VT public nudity is legal, unless a town specifically bans it, which few have done. Guess what? You can drive around all day long and you are not going to see a single naked person. It’s not against the law here because there isn’t actually a problem. Note that lewdness is illegal and will get you arrested. Not having a law against nudity however means people can go skinny dipping in the summer without fear of being arrested. They can sunbath in their backyards or even go for a hike if they want and no SWAT team will descend upon them. People police themselves in this regard using common sense and no laws are needed. In which States was this a problem that laws were needed to stop it?

    How many unnecessary laws do we have? More than the whole legal & criminal justice system would ever want to eliminate for sure.

    #40779
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    Here is a litmus test to do anywhere , ask any person on the street weather or not they would feel comfortable going up to a cop , to ask them for directions . I say this because , back in the day , a person wouldnt hesitate to go up to a local cop in a town they didnt know very well to ask directions . The reason they felt comfortable to do that is that they knew that 95% of the time , they were going to be dealing with a PEACE officer . I bet most people in this time would prefer to avoid them whenever possible . Hell , I find myself turning into a strip mall , or any other parking lot just to keep them from being behind me . Just Sayin .

    Here is a family story :
    when my mother was 14 years old and living in rural AZ , she had to drive one of the cars to the bus stop to get to school on time , they lived that far out . My grandmother was worried about it , so when she was in town , she went up to the sheriff and told him what the deal was . Here is what the difference is
    Law Enforcement officer response :” I see her she will be arrested and will be going to jail , and we will have to impound the car “- not to mention , the bulls$it and overused ” resisting arrest ” charge .
    Peace officer response : ” well , if I see her I will have to giver her a ticket ………………but I dont think I will see her . ” ( which is what actually happened )
    People now see the cops as the enemy …………..why is that ? I think we all know .

    #40800
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    @ Freedom,

    If the vast majority of cops were “good” cops, then why all the lawsuits and moreover, why are the rules set up specifically – at a minimum – to give them extra protections, special dispensation that rank-and-file citizens do not enjoy and – at a maximum – to give them a free pass?

    If they’re “good” cops, there would not be a need for such things in the first place.

    Giving them a free pass, special dispensation, extra protections, etc, only encourages bad behavior and a “I AM the law!” (and can do anything and get away with it) thinking. Cops are taught how to lie effectively and permitted, even encouraged, to lie to suspects. Yet, we assume they’ll tell the truth when on the stand? Cops are automatically thought to be the “good guy” and will tell the truth the moment they walk into a court room… which automatically paints the defendant as a lying piece of crap bad guy.

    It’s just smoke being blown up your hindquarters… a massive PR campaign that dates all the way back to the days of that crossdressing freak J. Edgar Hoover. The FBI was “new” back in the 30’s and Americans were – and still should be – highly suspicious of “National” cops working solely for the Feds. So, the government got with the movie-makers in Hollywood – and back then, everyone went to the movies… it was the “TV” of the day – as well as those who made the old Radio Shows, and had them make multitudes of movies that painted the G-Men as white knights fighting against the forces of darkness and evil…

    It was a brilliant PR campaign. And the vast majority of Americans bought off on it. Today, the PR campaign is Patriotism = supporting cops = good American. That cops have some uber-dangerous job “protecting us”, when in fact their job doesn’t even crack the top 10 most dangerous jobs, SCOTUS has ruled they have no duty to protect YOU – just society at large, and even then at their discretion – and that “protecting” someone requires them to be PRO-active, not RE-active.. which is what cops are. That “Officer Safety” trumps the safety and well-being of the citizenry…

    It’s all a bunch of green sh*^. Hogwash. Propaganda reinforced by television shows like “Law & Order”, “Cops”, etc, etc… I only watch such shows to count the number of times the Constitution is trampled… and if that were a drinking game, I’d need a liver transplant by now.

    “Hey, we need a warrant to go in there!”
    “You want to catch those EVIL TURR-RISTS or not?! I’m going in!”
    “‘Murka!”

    And people get used to cops trampling the Constitution in the name of patriotism, “getting the bad guy at any cost”, saaaaaaaaaaaaaafety, TURR-ISMS!, or whatever the sheep believe at the time.

    Statistically, you are way more likely to be shot dead by a cop than killed by any TURR-RIST! the ragheads throw our way… last year, cops shot and killed – in one year – more people than were shot and killed by cops in England over the last century.

    That’s just obscene.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #40801
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus, I do agree with you brother. The friends I have that are police officers tell me that body cameras would help them with the bad cops. It is like you being in a team and there are two or three players that are bad so you as a team member have a hard time turning in the team members. With the cameras you now do not have this problem since the proof is in the video. The good police officers want the cameras everywhere. I personally think this will end 95% of the crimes committed by bad cops.

    But I do not want the feds to federalize the police, NO WAY! So we all have to be careful and only push for reform and cameras.

    I live in a small city around the city of Miami were the police are good but in the city of Miami many complain and no one likes the City of Miami and the county Miami-Dade police officers. I think the large cities have problems with the police powers and there union control.

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