August 13, 2014 at 1:20 am #21811
.22 has been ‘currency’ before.
My grandfather related many times the stories about being young during the depression and .22 being better than money at times. Of buying single rounds when a box of 50 wasn’t affordable. Of trading .22 for goods when money wasn’t around.
Later in life, after I came along, he kept ammo on hand, but not as much as one might expect.
There was two bricks of .22 in the drawer as long as I could remember, and a box or two of shotshells for each shotgun but no more.
Odd for a man who went through what he did, but he also knew he could always get more.
Through nefarious means I am certain. Considering what he did in WWII, I am certain he would get what he needed.
Again, I think that in many situations what you have is exactly what you will have for the duration.
What makes me concerned is that what one is carrying (CCW) is potentially the limit for what you may have for the duration. Zero resupply from your home/stockpile, zero trading, zero ammo that can be used without risk.
Me, I have a dwindling supply of .22, the shortage has hit even dealers hard and my stockpile is lower than I’d ever have been comfortable with. I have enough for our use, but want to double my count as soon as I can. Better to have and not need.
Personally, I actually don’t know how many rounds I have for many calibers.
The handloaded ammo in many cases is loose packed in ammo cans, boxes or smaller buckets and I could only approximate. Factory ammo, I keep a small amount in comparison, mostly ‘duty’ ammo and am building my stockpile up again, having used some of it for business purposes.
Depending on your situation, one may only need a handful of rounds for the rest of time, others may need thousands. Again, better to have and not need.
I don’t buy into the 1-2K per gun, because for some it may put more of a strain on the floor joists than they could handle. But I do believe in having a good number for working guns. Especially if you are in an area where it’s hard to come by now, let alone later.August 13, 2014 at 1:33 am #21813
I have about 9,000 22LR put away and my brother in law has the same. I think it is as good as gold too!August 13, 2014 at 8:38 am #21831
Working on a stash of 22LR is a great idea, but it seems “everybody’s doing it”
"ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....
Cogito, ergo armatus sumAugust 13, 2014 at 1:46 pm #21848
undeRGRond, agree! I purchased the 9,000 when the price was $24 for 550 round box. I now buy only one box at a time to use for the range and to keep the same supply stored.August 13, 2014 at 2:04 pm #21861
<div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Whirlibird wrote:</div>Sledjockey: The old inverted HBWC load is an old load, and unfortunately not as effective in testing as many factory JHP’s. I made a number of these for a friend, he ended up shooting a skunk with one and it was literally shoved backwards by the shot. With some practice shooting a few days later, he found the bullets were hitting the target at 10Y fully sideways. Some guns don’t like the old loads like this.
I handload for my own use and also commercially as part of my job.<br>
But until it’s post-SHTF, I’m going to stick to factory ammo for defensive shooting, better and cheaper to fight the lawyers before something happens than after.
I won’t say how many rounds I could produce but I have a number of buckets of brass that I just had to move (relocated the shop) and last I checked was set up to load some 75 cartridges or better.
I have long argued that when SHTF, what you have is all you’re going to have.<br>
Resupply or scrounging at that point is highly risky at best.<br>
Depending on what happens, looking for ammo means that you have a gun (possibly empty) and are a target for the .gov and any other predators out there who want your gun.
Put it back while it’s still fairly cheap and reasonably available. Put back what you think you might need for the rest of your life, just in case.
Wow. That was a lot of information at one time, so I will try and reply in chunks:
If your wadcutter loads were tumbling in your friend’s firearm, you should look at the powder load or the bullet weight. Just because one set of reloads didn’t work as expected doesn’t mean you should “poo-poo” an entire idea. If you want “pest desecration” testing as a basis for effectiveness, we have shot racoons at over 60 yrds with our inverted wadcutter loads and turned them into a scene from Saw. Getting a good load for my .300 Wby took a while as did one for my .44 mag. The is the beauty of reloading. You can find the sweet spot for each firearm that way.
If you are really, truly serious about SHTF and not having at least a hand reloader or additional ammo as a backstock, you need to stick with civilian versions of military weapon systems and blow out the cylinders enough to fire about any brand/configuration/size/load, etc. Why get something persnickety and expect a specific factory load to be available? That makes no sense……
Again, if you have to fight lawyers where you live just because you reload your own ammo then I say that you should do what you need to for self preservation. Not all states are like that and if your location is so anti-gun that you are pidgeon holed into factory loads only, then you can either move or live with it. Almost sounds like you are in a SHTF type situation right now anyway.
Even bison hunters and Army scouts back in the day carried their own hand presses for their firearms. You can pick up bullet casts at reasonable prices. They also don’t weight that much if you have to di di mau. If you get a bullet puller and hand primer, you are good to go. It doesn’t matter what ammo you find. You can strip it and figure out a safe load from a book. Again, just like anything else….. Just prepare and know how to use the equipment.
Lastly, you said that ammo is “still cheap.” I make pretty good wages, but can’t really justify buying large quanities of factory ammo at these prices. With some time and initial investment, the costs of ammo can be DRASTICALLY reduced through reloading. If someone doesn’t have enough money to put back 1k rounds, I always suggest that they put back 500 rounds, buy a cheap reloading press kit ($100 on sale for the Lee) and get the components to reload those cases 2-3 times. As more money comes in they can buy more brass and just load those up to get to their desired stock levels…… Like anything, all this is an investment. Being able to trade reloading services might also be a very nice option for you as well. I get a lot of trading going on because I have a progressive and can pump out 1k in about 90 minutes if the cases are already prepped.
Not every SHTF situation is based upon the concept of “grab my bag and AR because I have 2 minutes to get out of here.” Preparing for each contingency is what a resonable and responsible person does. Being able to resupply by reloading fits MY definitions of resonable and responsible.
http://ageofdecadence.comAugust 13, 2014 at 8:56 pm #21894
The .38’s were tumbling simply because the bullets were unstable backwards, the balance point was wrong. Fired right way forward, they would make a one hole group.
The factory vs handload argument has come up many times over the years.
And while I live in a gun friendly area, not everyone does. Hence the general recommendation for factory loads.
Do a search for Mas Ayoob’s articles on this. (American Handgunner and Combat Handgun magazines) There have been a number of lawsuits and criminal charges over the years because of overzealous lawyers and such. Again, better to head this off before trouble starts than have to pay the lawyers more money later. One Officer/Deputy was charged some years back when the skel he shot with a handload (that exactly duplicated a Speer factory load) was maimed for life. The problem comes from the lawyers starting with “you wanted to make your ammo more lethal, more deadly, etc” In this case, the Officer just couldn’t find/get the factory ammo and loaded and shot the duplicate ammo for competition/practice, and as it duplicated the factory load, he ran with it. Bad days ahead.
Some places, you may not be charged criminally but you’re open to civil lawsuits (not here). Again better to head off trouble before it happens. Factory ammo at $1 a round is still cheaper than lawyers rates of $250 an hour.
Not everyone has the space, time or inclination to reload. It’s just a fact of life.
Some people aren’t careful enough to reload, some people just aren’t that smart, another fact.
Previously I mentioned how to slowly grow a stockpile of ammo, one box at a time. Me, even buying at dealers cost can’t afford to put as much back as I’d like. So I handload my hunting ammo, my post-SHTF ammo (same stuff as the hunting loads) and my target ammo. But my defensive ammo is factory only bought one box at a time as I can afford to. I have other preps and thing to buy besides ammo.
I agree that it’s responsible to plan for making more, to resupply yourself.
However I also look at the possibility that this may not be an option for me and others depending on the situation.
6 months back, the family and I went to Vegas for Shot Show. If anything had happened while we were traveling or there, it would have been sidearms only, and a very limited number or rounds.
Now if that had been a long term situation during that time, EMP for example, we would have had a long distance to cover and been stuck with a few handfuls of ammo to get us by. I could have 20,000 rounds sitting on the floor at home but it’s not doing me any good there.
Plan for the worst, no more ammo available from X point forward. That means putting it back however you can, right now.
But there’s the other worst, you can’t get to your resupply and are stuck with just what you have on you right now. Both merit thought and planning.
And I agree that most situations don’t end with grabbing a BOB and the (insert gun here) and heading for the hills, financial collapse, natural disasters and much more happen fairly regularly. And I’ve been one to point that out more than once here.
Me, I don’t recommend reloading for many, for the reasons outlined before as well as the simple reason that not everyone needs to set up for it. There are enough people out there who do reload and who would be happy to both teach a person and also to let them use their setup to load their own as long as they supply their own components.
I have customers who use my gear when I’m not using it, they follow my rules and have all signed a waiver (commercial loader) saying that any mistakes they make are their own.August 14, 2014 at 1:47 am #21908
I must respectfully contend your points for many reasons:
1) I was seriously hoping your were not perpetuating the urban legend created by Massad Ayoob. There is and never has been a single documented case where a hand load was the the focus or supporting cause for a lawsuit. He even admitted that his statement was sheer speculation. Numerous articles by lawyers have been published regarding this fact. There is tons of speculation regarding the reproduction of results if specifics about stipling, trajectory, energy transfer, cavitation, blood splatter, etc., are required for a trial. Again, most of the argument is based upon speculation about the variances in loaded results of a small sampling versus large sampling of factory loads. To reiterate, this has been completely based upon speculation and not actual court cases. Google it. Ironically, the main contributors to this urban legend are law enforcement personnel that are quoting their internal regulations and not civil cases.
2) People have been responsible for their own firearm loads for hundreds of years. From black powder muskets and muzzle loaders to bison hunters that didn’t trust the available factory loads so they did their own – in the field and with hand loaders. If you have ever ripped factory loads down to their components you would realize several things. The variance in powder charge alone can vary .3 – .5 gr per round out of the same box. The cases are not even mic’ed to be the same. They can be several 1000ths off and I have even got some that needed trimmed after ripping them down. Their tolerances are nothing to really write home to Mom about.
I know because I only use factory rounds for plinking. I even ripped apart 5 boxes of Corelokt just a couple weeks ago to reload them my way to find as much as .6 grains difference in those boxes. I have done this and checked factory loads a lot and still find several 10ths variance quite regularly. Mine do not have that variance.
Lastly, if handloads were such crap why do so many competition shooters reload their own? I will answer for you….. Loads are perfectly loaded for their particular firearm.
3) My family have loaded inverted wadcutters for years. We have shot thousands of rounds in this configuration. Unless we had a bad powder load (too light or heavy) or a firearm that didn’t like that particular weight bullet, we never had a problem. We didn’t base our conclusion on only a single batch of loads for a single firearm. These loads DO work, ARE well suited to doing high damage, and DON’T have the penetration that a JHP or other “modern” bullet. They ARE good loads for defense because they do high damage without the penetration. Again, not 1 time attempt, but our family has used the inverted wadcutter load since the 70’s for certain types of situations. Of course we don’t use them for bears or anything like that, but I am witness to the damage that they can do to animals as large as coyotes and wild dogs. Huge hole going in and no exit wound……
For everyone else:
I wanted to bring up some points that were being skirted around. Make sure you have a resupply plan, no matter what it is. For me, I will reload my ammo as needed just like outdoorspeople have done for hundreds of years.
http://ageofdecadence.comAugust 14, 2014 at 3:20 am #21922
IMO you can’t have enough ammo. Now I’m not telling you to go waiting outside the WW and demand all of their .22 ammo. Im saying if you have the cheddar and the time go buy yourself a box of something and call it a day. I think of it this way: How many people live around you? How do they act under normal circumstances and how do you think they would act when things go bad? Again, I’m not telling you to creep around your local supermarket eyeing people like Gollum from LOTR, just rather observe how people interact. These little things can help you design a proper loadout and storage strategy. I take all of these things into account when I am looking for things to store away, ammo included. Reloading isn’t for everyone, including me. I don’t have the space or time to make my own gumballs. My game plan is to have enough to accommodate my family and myself in our current surroundings.August 14, 2014 at 5:49 pm #21991
SJ, there are at least two court cases where criminal charges were pressed at least in part because of the ammo.
I have mentioned both, you want to look up the case files to argue your point, go ahead.
I never said “handloads were such crap”. I related that not everyone has the same high standards as some others. As such one cannot trust all handloads. One of my former coworkers nearly blew up his 1911 because if his slack standards for reloading. You want to carry handloads, go ahead, I’m not going to. As I have said, avoiding the issues previously mentioned. Enough said.
So many competition shooters load their own because of the price and more importantly being able to set up a particular load for the gun itself. Heck my stockpile of POST-SHTF ammo is also the same as my hunting loads, and again I load all my own for hunting and POST-SHTF, as I can put back 2-3x as much with higher quality.
But I still carry factory for defense today.
You like and have had good results with the inverted HBWC, great. I haven’t and in more than one gun.
My Python tolerated them, the Detective Special couldn’t keep them on a milk jug at 7Y. The Smith’s I’ve tried (more than a few) ran the gamut from tolerating to adequate. My Grandfather used the inverted load for years, until better factory loads became available. He used them until I started doing wet-pack and water tests and found them lacking.
Some years back, Denver PD used to carry wheelguns.
Their armorers loaded all their ammo, both for the street and practice.
A couple of Officers ended up getting in a shooting with a gent who started firing from inside his house.
The Officers responded and were only saved by another officer showing up and shooting the gent with a 12ga slug through the screen door.
The .38’s the Officers had responded with to the gent’s firing had gotten stuck in the aluminum screen door.
Poor quality control.
Fast forward to the last couple of years.
People in my CCW and advanced classes, I’ve seen multiple failures to fire and failures to extract/eject with handloads and none with factory ammo. Unlike many instructors, I allow handloads in my classes. Why? SImple those failures give the student extra practice with drills and impart a whole new knowledge about quality control of their ammo.
The department I retired out of, we were using commercially reloaded ammo for our AR’s and .45’s for practice.
I still have half a 50 round box of .223 that had failed during our qualifications (the defective rounds). We had repeated failures to load, extract, and yes fire. 25 out of 400 is not a workable average I want to risk my or your life with. We were also using ‘new’ ammo from the same company for our duty ammo. I immediately dumped every round and loaded my mags with some fresh factory ammo from my private stock until the department ammo order arrived.
I whole heartedly agree, have a resupply plan. If your plan involves reloading, make sure that your standards are beyond factory. Your life and the lives of those you love may depend on it.August 14, 2014 at 6:11 pm #21993
You have some great points there Whirlibird.August 14, 2014 at 6:36 pm #21995
I have searched for the two “examples” that you gave. Google did not pull up any information on them and all I found was pages and pages about the urban legends that were created by Massad Ayood’s speculation. If you have links I would love to see them because I sure can’t find anything and neither can numerous sources to include the NRA and multiple law reviews. I would love to see the facts of those cases. Even a case number and district would suffice.
You immediately jumped on me for my “old loads” when I was just mentioning some of the self defense loads I made for personal use. I also stated that your comments regarding reloaded defense rounds versus factory ones were of no concern to me. So what? I never called you out until you pressed your OPINION as FACT on several comments I made regarding what and how I do things. At no time did I ever call anyone out or discredit their way of doing things when I first posted. I simply let people know that they needed a resupply plan and reloading was a very viable option and recommended by me. I even ended it with the fact that it was my “$.02.”
Let me explain something to you so that we are on the same page…… You can have your opinion and so can I. I do things that work for me. You have your favorites. Just because I think that something is a good thing doesn’t mean that it is wrong. The same with you. We can definitely disagree due to our own life experiences and can share those. That is a good thing as long as both sides respect each other’s experiences. My statement that, “If the stipling and blood spatter don’t support the actual events, I would go to jail for shoddy forensics work anyway. The bullet fragmentation wouldn’t trump the rest of the evidence. If it did, I would figure it was because of the state I decided to live in. That should be part of your risk analysis anyway,” did not attack you in any form or fashion. I was stating my opinion based upon what I know from forensics used in court cases where I live. Simple. Then you had to try and attack my opinion? I don’t get that in such a friendly forum. Not only that, but bring more than a couple vague references, support from someone who is well known for quoting his speculation as gospel, and some testing other than “I made a number of these for a friend” as a rebuttal, please.
As for you not liking reloads….. This is all over your posts. You don’t like them and don’t trust them. You cite antecdotal evidence all over the place. I am sorry that I paraphrased your multitude of posts as your belief that “handloads were such crap.” You feelings on them are quite obvious, though.
I understand that you were a LEO and are retired from that profession. I appreciate the years that you spent to get to where you are in life. Please don’t force your opinion as fact the way that you did when you were a LEO…… We mere civilians can actually be educated and have a brain contrary to what you were taught on the force.
I openly apologize to the masses if this discussion caused any issues. I am out for lunch and done posting for a while, I think. Learning from open minded people in a friendly environment should be fun and not work.
http://ageofdecadence.comAugust 14, 2014 at 7:25 pm #21998
I work in Ferguson, MO. I carry an SR40C Ruger with 15+1, 2 15 round mags and one 10 round mag of 165 gr JHP. Not sure that’s enough given current events.
At home, I’m one of the “2000 rd/weapon” guys and also stocked up 3 years ago on calibers that people use out here, but aren’t considered “everyday” rounds. .270, .30, 30-06. My fellow SHTF neighbors are standardized with us on .40 and .223. We give boxes of .22 as birthday and Christmas gifts. Gotta love the country.August 14, 2014 at 9:31 pm #22005
SJ, I wasn’t jumping on you for using the Inverted load, I was pointing out to those who haven’t the knowledge and experience from developing and using them, that they aren’t the best choice in comparison for the non-dedicated personnel as they may not get the results expected.
I DO like reloads/handloads, I have countless thousands within feet of me here at my shop and at home. However most people do not put the same care and attention into their loads as some others do. I feel that the average person would be better served by saving their pennies and buying factory ammo to eliminate many variables and risks.
As to the court cases, while anecdotal Ayoob’s relating of the court cases are accurate in that the ammunition used were a major part of the prosecutions attack in court rather than the only reason for the charges. Online versions, no clue where. I’m afraid that the versions I had were hard copies, both in magazines and also copies of the court documents from an evidence course I was part of, as an instructor. Having just moved my shop, finding any of my paperwork from those days is going to be next to impossible for a while and it’s possible that the docs were left with the rest of the training material at the PD when I left.
However for those interested, the cases involved are:
New Hampshire vs. James Kennedy (late 70’s)
Rockingham County Superior Court, PO Box 1258, Kingston, NH 03843.
STATE v. BIAS
152 N.J. 361 (1998)
704 A.2d 1297
STATE OF NEW JERSEY
The Supreme Court of New Jersey.
January 15, 1998.
Superior Court of New Jersey
313 Second Street
PO Box 900
Belvedere, NJ 07823
Here’s a link to Ayoob’s online write up on these.
I came into LE work late in life, having done and been many things before getting ‘stupid’ and putting on the badge.
Unlike the officers you relate about in another post, I try to keep an open mind and not judge people, not my job then or now. My job was not only to protect and serve, but also to keep the peace. Not to ‘harass and terrify’ as some seem to do nowadays, but to fight the lawyers before I had to fight them in court.
And anything you could do to head the bottomfeeders off before they can get a full head of steam is a good thing.
I was the evidence tech for two different departments, there are a great deal of things that are looked at, some can be skewed by unscrupulous lawyers, some are just facts that can be proven and reproven by both sides. The less variables you have in any equation, the better. Factory ammo removes one variable.
SJ, we agree to disagree, we are in perfect agreement to that.August 14, 2014 at 10:27 pm #22015
We have a few posters that have strong opinions about…well about almost everything. Don’t let it bother you..they’re harmless.
Both of those cases are in NJ., they do not qualify for consideration in the remaining 49 states. I’m surprised you are using them as the basis for your thinking. You could go to jail for having one hollow point (even a 22LR) in your trunk in NJ. Any opportunity to harass a gun owner with prosecution in NJ is taken to the max.August 15, 2014 at 12:07 am #22030
Jersey gun laws SUCK.
So does Fat Ba$tard, “Krispy-Kreme Christie”
No RINOs for President…
"ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....
Cogito, ergo armatus sum
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