Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 33 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #23576
    Profile photo of warpedrazorback
    warpedrazorback
    Survivalist
    member3

    Malgus:

    No disrespect was inferred. I have no issues with an opposing viewpoint. In fact, I welcome it, as I may learn something new or, at the very least, different viewpoints can be explored.

    I guess it boils down to how you define “money”. In the strictest definition, money must be readily accepted as a method of payment. Yes, Bubba might trade you a 1982 Ford Bronco for gold bars, and Mr. Clements might trade his fully-paid house for gold coins, but that is an example of barter. Those would be exceptions rather than the norm, thus showing that gold is not readily accepted as means of payment. Bubba will also give you a trade-in value on your old Crown Vic, but that doesn’t make the Crown Vic money.

    If you mean money in the sense that it is fungible, stores vaule, and is a unit of accounting, then yes, you could call it money, but like I said…try convincing Safeway to accept gold Eagles at spot price to pay for your groceries. If they did accept them, they would accept them at the face value, so a 1 oz silver bullion coin from the US Mint would be accepted as $1, 1 oz gold coin would be $50, and 1 oz platinum coin would be $100.

    Don’t get me wrong: I think precious metals are a wonderful way of saving wealth, and yes, in a SHTF scenario I think they will have a role to play, but if you’re going for SHTF storage of wealth, I highly discourage the purchase of gold coins or bars. If you want to buy gold, then buy simple rings, bracelets and necklaces, even broken ones. I think silver and copper will be more useful than gold. Taking an ounce of gold to the post-apocalyptic trading center would be a very bad idea, unless you’re buying a truck maybe. Taking some scrap gold, or a few silver coins, or even some salt in a bag, might serve you better. But at that point, does that make salt money? Salt was used as a measure of trade for thousands of years before gold was.

    You say gold has intrinsic value, but does it, really? In the end, it is only as valuable as the parties in a trade transaction agree to give it. You can’t eat it, can’t build shelter out of it, can’t forge it into a practical weapon…what is it’s intrinsic value? How does a seller know he is getting actual gold, and not some other yellow metal, or how does the seller know the purity of the gold? How many people know how to acid test gold? In that light, wheat, spices, and textiles are more valuable as money (and have also been used as a measure of trade hundreds or thousands of years ago).

    I know this seems like a debate on semantics, but I think it’s important. Our economy is going to crap, and as a nation we need to get smarter on how it works. Again, precious metals do store wealth very well, but that only fulfills part of the requirements of being money.

    Thanks for the civil debate, btw!

    #23578
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    warpedrazorback, I agree about the problem with gold or silver. It is valuable but in a SHTF time and you have a lot of stored food why would you give your food for gold? If you run out of food you die, you can’t eat the gold or silver. So you would only sell food if you can grow more without a problem.

    #23584
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Brother Razor and Brother Freedom,

    I know you can’t eat gold or silver.. but, silver buys you food. Gold buys your life. There is a reason why every SEAL that is deployed into harm’s way carries with him 10 Gold Eagles.

    In truth, my thinking was similar to your own some time ago… Yes, I can invest in Gold Eagles, but honestly – who can “make change” for a 1 ounce Gold Eagle? Especially around here? Most of our PM’s are silver – Eagles and old US coins. I find it highly ironic that one gallon of gas in today’s money – $3.35 as of right now, at least around here – is exactly the same – the equivalent – as it was back in 1964 – 35 cents. Except the 35 cents is one silver quarter and one silver dime. We do have Gold Eagles, but in smaller denominations – the 1/10th oz and 1/4 oz ones… those will be right handy, but come at a premium…

    The problem, I feel, isn’t semantics. I feel that since August 15th, 1971, when Nixon “temporarily” broke the Bretton Woods agreement and divorced gold from the dollar, there has been a concerted effort at reprogramming everyone into thinking that gold isn’t money. Prior to that date, with the dollar backed by gold, gold WAS money… it’s been “temporarily” divorced from the dollar (heh… how many people still believe that line of BS?), but now we’ve spent our way into a crack and there isn’t enough gold to back the dollar – even if we WANTED to re-establish the gold dollar, we can’t…

    If you look at the value of gold and silver prior to 1913 – what a gold dollar bought (assuming that the “dollar” was actually gold and was actually one ounce), the goods and services you can buy today isn’t all that different from those you could buy prior to 1913. The “dollar” itself is worth less than 95% of what it was in 1913… but gold is eternal.

    Yes, some people will value other items more than gold, depending on circumstances. A starving man will turn down a handful of gold eagles in favor of food. But in my opinion, these are exceptional circumstances that last relatively briefly – a shakeup or disaster – and when it passes, the old standard – gold – will be accepted again.

    By the way, “you can’t make a weapon out of it”…. from a metallurgical standpoint, pure, dead-soft gold would make a fair substitute for a lead musket ball or bullet, provided the velocities are not too high. Alloyed, it would make a better bullet as you could shove it faster, making it more effective…

    It would be one damn expensive musket ball, but it would do the job… :) Just sayin’….

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #23587
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus I agree that in the rural areas gold and silver will be a good thing since you can grow food or live stock. But in the cities were I am food will be the king in a SHTF. I think the first two to three weeks people will sell you food for it till they find out that there is no other food then gold or silver will not be good. They would have to go to the rural areas and exchange gold or silver for food.

    After the SHTF gold and silver will become king again. But when everyone is dieing in the cities no one will give up there food for gold when there is no more food to be found. So agree that once it passes gold will be king.

    #23596
    Profile photo of warpedrazorback
    warpedrazorback
    Survivalist
    member3

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>Malgus wrote:</div>By the way, “you can’t make a weapon out of it”…. from a metallurgical standpoint, pure, dead-soft gold would make a fair substitute for a lead musket ball or bullet, provided the velocities are not too high. Alloyed, it would make a better bullet as you could shove it faster, making it more effective…
    It would be one damn expensive musket ball, but it would do the job… Just sayin’….

    lol touche

    No one is arguing the value of gold. The issue is we define the term “money” differently. In layman’s terms, I understand your perspective. In technical terms, I disagree. The problem I see in a variety of situations is people read something on the internet, especially something written by a respected member of whatever community they ascribe to, and assume the terminology they’ve read applies across all spectrums. Then we have people rallying to bring the gold standard back, and I think that’s a terrible idea. Our economy and financial structure is screwed, undoubtedly, but simply reverting back to a gold-based economy is a fantasy. It wouldn’t work, not in today’s structure. There are plenty of ways to make it work, but the gold standard isn’t it.

    Come SHTF, commodities (such as precious metals, food, bullets, etc) will be invaluable, and fiat money will be useful for burning to keep warm (a la Germany post WWI). Until then, precious metals (as well as other commodities) are an excellent way to store wealth.

    You’re a respected member of this forum community. I would hate to see someone take your writings, make assumptions based on them, and put effort down a path that is at best futile, and at worst counterproductive.

    #23641
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Warped,

    We’re just going to have to agree to disagree. However, in a way, we’re arguing the same point – you from one end, me from the other.

    Precious metals backed money (gold, silver) was just fine for 6,000 years. Paper money, backed by real gold and silver, limits the amount governments can spend, since you cannot spend any more than you have on hand. It is an automatic brake on deficit spending.

    Remove the link between paper money and precious metals and you’re left with what? Fiat currency backed by hot air and nothing much else. Our current system – the result of our “temporary” separation from gold – is fueled by debt. If we actually paid off the debt, the system would collapse. What I don’t understand is why 2 or 3 percent inflation is permissible, but no inflation is off the table, in other words…

    Moreover, not linking your paper money to precious metals – making it ‘currency’ in the process – means you can print and spend as much as you want, at will. Which has beget our current state of crony capitalism. Since most people don’t know the difference between true free market capitalism and crony capitalism, they see the abuses under our current system and assume that ALL capitalism is bad… which gives rise to such misguided groups as the Occutards and renewed support for Marxism and Communism’s retarded second cousin, Socialism…

    Reverting back to a gold-based economy right now is impossible, I agree. Not because it’s a bad idea, but because the corrupt and thoroughly bankrupt system which has grown out of the “temporary” separation of the dollar from gold has made it impossible – egged on by Keynesian economists, the Fed, Bullion Banks (and the shell game they’re playing with gold – it’s outright fraud) and the US Government itself… if our current system were changed, the river of cash stops. The currency spigot is shut off.

    You are familiar with the documentary “End of the Road – How Money Became Worthless” ? I would like you to watch that, if you haven’t already, and tell me why those guys are wrong.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #23645
    Profile photo of undeRGRönd
    undeRGRönd
    Survivalist
    member8

    Malgus is spot-on with the precious metals.

    But I agree, that a newby prepper should stack food, water, and weapons first, then maybe some PMs.
    I did it kinda bass-ackwards, I had purchased a good sum of Silver, then started thinking of the preps.
    I was in financial shock when my 401A took a 33% hit in late 2008, and I knew I had to have something
    on hand as opposed to being in someone else’s hands. Silver is by far the
    best upside of anything we can buy as monetary insurance against SHTF. Our “money” will be back to it’s intrinsic value, ZERO!
    (paper and ink, backed by false promises)

    PMs are a bridge to the financial future, a “head start” if you will. If I could extract my 401A tomorrow, I
    would go heavy in Silver, and round out my preps, perhaps up to 25% for physical preps. Mostly SILVER.
    2 Reasons:
    1. I’m doing OK with physical preps
    2. PMs are an approved roll-over vehicle.

    It’s called a “Self-Directed IRA” and can be SELF HELD!

    "ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....

    Cogito, ergo armatus sum

    #23647
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus,
    For the first 6000 years we lived in agrarian societies. Production of goods never significantly out paced the production of gold. Additionally the size of the population was
    Limited and the need for additional currency wasn’t nessecary.

    Now there are more people then the volume of gold can represent and because of the industrial, mechanical, electrical and computer revolutions there are more goods then the value of the existing gold can represent. Gold has no real intrinsic value, no more than any other element or material. It has an assigned value that is abstract. We could assign the same value to aluminum. Gold has value because historically people wanted it and would trade for it no more then that.

    #23648
    Profile photo of undeRGRönd
    undeRGRönd
    Survivalist
    member8

    Aluminum is much much MUCH more common, and corrodes away to dust. Gold does not.

    There is a group formulating a poly-metallic money standard, represented by a friend of mine on silverdoctors.com and his handle is PatFields. They have calculated that a “Copper Standard” could realistically back ALL the trillions of U$D, along with Gold, Silver, (and possibly Platinum?) The last figure I have seen from his group is approximately 6 grams of Copper (roughly 2 old copper cents, ¢) to equal the U$Dollar.

    Other misconceptions I have seen regarding Silver and other PMs:

    Current Silver to Gold Mining Ratios are just under 9:1, almost 1/2 of the “historic ratio” of 17:1 listed above. Source: http://www.usdebtclock.org/gold-precious-metals.html

    GOLD is practically impervious to corrosion and oxidation. It is so good at this, it is sometimes used in critical electrical connections, even though Copper and Silver are waaaay better conductors! But most electronics do not need a big conductivity number, as much as a constant connection. Gold works well where there is a make and break (temporary) connection that must not corrode. Silver and Copper are better where the connection is permanent. Silver and Copper are better where they can be shielded from oxidation and corrosion, and better where higher loads are required.

    Silver will be “economically feasible” to be recycled from these scattered landfill-style (currently) sources when Silver reaches a price level of approximately $350-$400 per Troy Ounce, with today’s dollar valuations. So if the U$D devalues by 50%, these numbers go to $700-$800/ozT as a result.

    Regarding God and Money:
    The Bible states that the Love of Money is the root of all kinds of Evil, but how uch more evil is it to seek after this fake paper and ink that is so much less??? Horrible situation our world is in, spiritually and economically.
    A Poly-Metallic Standard is not only POSSIBLE, but likely our only feasible, realistic answer.

    "ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....

    Cogito, ergo armatus sum

    #23653
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Aluminum was so difficult to make, and thus rare and valuable, the Emperor of France (Napoleon III?) had his silverware – which was made of actual silver – replaced with aluminum-ware to show off how wealthy he was when he had big state dinners and such… even the Washington monument was capped with a pyramid of aluminum, because at the time it was more valuable than gold.

    Then someone figured out a way to make it cheaply, and aluminum went from being used by the Emperor of France to eat dinner to pop cans we think nothing of when we throw them away…

    Platinum – because nobody really knew what the hell it was – used to be called “Bastard Silver”… when I was in Panama, I was stationed at Ft. Sherman, which is right down the road from Fort San Lorenzo. Fort San Lorenzo used to be the embarkation point for all the Spanish gold ships heading back to Spain, loaded with loot. Apparently, during a dive on a wreck – not far from Ft. San Lorenzo – someone brought up a swivel gun – a “deck gun” – made entirely of Platinum. Worth a king’s ransom, but at the time the little cannon was made, nobody really knew what platinum was…

    As far as there not being enough PM’s to go around for everyone if we have PM backed money again, I would argue that the first people who figure out how to mine an asteroid will be very, very wealthy… one asteroid of reasonable size has enough PM’s and rare metals in it than the whole Earth does.

    And gold has been made in the heart of a nuclear reactor. Granted, it’s only small amounts, but it’s proof of concept. We can make gold. Same as we can make diamonds. The methodology is different, but we can make it if we want to. I’m willing to make a bet that if anyone really wanted to, they could figure out a way to make larger amounts of it. In nature, gold is made in the heart of a supernova…

    But, TPTB would never go for it, as it would devalue the PM’s they have on hand… unless they could control the amounts made and owned the process…. sort of like how DeBeers dumps shiploads of diamonds into the oceans to keep the prices up and so keep their profits way up…

    Still… I’m betting it could be done. Probably will be done, at some point in the future.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #23654
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    For the first 6000 years we lived in agrarian societies. Production of goods never significantly out paced the production of gold. Additionally the size of the population was limited and the need for additional currency wasn’t nessecary. – 74

    So you say… man, talk about thread drift.. :)

    We could argue what societies existed in the past for the rest of time, and still be no closer to the truth than we are right now…

    Humans – just like us. Same intelligence, imagination, drive, etc, as us – have existed for what? 200,000 years? And during that whole time, all of our history worth mentioning occurred in the last 6,000 years? What happened to the other 194,000 years? We just lived in caves and chucked spears? Picked berries and such?

    Yeah, not buying that. I’m of the opinion that many civilizations have risen and fallen over the hundreds of millennia we have been here. There have been what? 4 major glaciations in the last 1/4 million years? You drive a glacier a mile thick over something man-made, and it ain’t gonna be around very long. Even the eggheads on that goofy History Channel show “Life After People” all agree that anything we make might make it 10,000 years… and that’s just Mount Rushmore and the Pyramids. Anything lesser probably won’t make it. For all we know, there could have been multiple civilizations – dozens – that have risen that we don’t know squat about and never will…

    All the above does not discount or disprove your statement that there ain’t enough PM’s to go around because there’s too many people. And I would agree – there’s too many people in the world.

    If we wanted to use PM backed paper money – just for us here in the US or just for say, Western Civilization, it could be workable… just don’t let anyone outside the club have any. :)

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #23668
    Profile photo of undeRGRönd
    undeRGRönd
    Survivalist
    member8

    Aluminum was never “made”, it has always been refined from Bauxite ore and that is now “cheaply” done. In electric furnaces. Gold has been “made” (assembled on the atomic level) in nuclear reactors, but the energy cost far exceeds the value of the amounts that can be “made”. A true alchemical nightmare, so to speak :D It “works”, but is too expensive to show a profit, by several orders of magnitude!

    Google is pioneering this asteroid mining venture, I heard of that about a year ago.
    They “think” that asteroids may contain high concentrations of PMs, but I have not seen compelling data.
    I suppose the meteorites that have been analyzed can help, but what I’ve seen, they say is “mostly rock”
    which is likely what is mined and refined in these earthbound mines…

    "ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....

    Cogito, ergo armatus sum

    #23669
    Profile photo of ronym
    ronym
    Survivalist
    member5

    actually we live in interesting era
    1000 years ago gold and silver only for money, jewelery, etc
    but now ?
    silver are in every where
    ( cellphone, laptop, computer, anti bacterial wound plaster, solar cell, ink and thousand more industry )
    600 million oz of silver are used every year in billion of product
    not only silver, gold also used in variety way
    which is 1000 years ago people never imagine it before
    did you ever look at computer microprocessor ?
    or SIM Card on our cell phone ?
    what kind of shiny yelow metal in the pin / connector of it ?
    yup… it’s copper plated by gold
    .
    and why is gold, silver ( and copper ) are important metal in information age ?
    yup they are electrical and thermal conductor
    copper are in every electrical cable
    silver or gold in every electronic circuit / connector
    .
    gold and silver are also one of asset class which is not other people liability
    ( another asset class are land, property, etc )
    .
    gold, silver and copper also have interesting capabilities
    – anti bacterial
    – the best ray / light reflector ( silver )
    – melleable and soft metal so it can be bend to form microscopic conductor ( such as in microprocessor )
    – it’s electrochemical properties are suitable for battery electrode
    ( such as in watch battery, computer button cell battery )
    – anti corrosion ( oxidation resistant )

    #23670
    Profile photo of undeRGRönd
    undeRGRönd
    Survivalist
    member8

    Interesting Asteroid mining data:

    As regards the precious (and “strategic”) metals such as the platinum group, cobalt, gold, gallium, germanium, and others, the lower the Fe-Ni metal content, the more enriched the Fe-Ni metal is in these rare and precious metals and elements. These elements readily dissolve into the metal that exists, and the less metal that exists, the less diluted they are. Many asteroids are richer in most of these precious metals than the richest Earth ores which we mine. Further, these metals all occur in one ore when it comes to asteroids, not in separate ores. As discussed later in this chapter, the exact same process used to extract and separate these precious metals from the world’s largest nickel ore mine at the Sudbury Astrobleme in Canada is easily used in space, and is a simple process using only carbon, sulfur and oxygen, all of which can be derived from asteroids, too.

    From Here:

    http://www.permanent.com/meteorite-compositions.html

    Richer ore grades than those found on Earth… :D

    "ROGUE ELECTRICIAN" Hoping to be around to re-energize the New World.....

    Cogito, ergo armatus sum

    #23675
    Profile photo of ronym
    ronym
    Survivalist
    member5

    by the way, the same meteorite or moon rock are also solving our crucial problem
    how can we breath ?
    ( can we found oxygen in outer space ? )
    if we want to mining meteor or moon rock or in other planet to get gold, silver, platinum, etc
    .
    yup… the same rock that contain gold, silver, platinum
    also have iron oxide, alumunium oxide, titanium oxide
    and many-many more metal oxide
    .
    that’s ton’s of oxygen in every rock in meteor, moon and every planet in every galaxy

    http://spacemath.gsfc.nasa.gov/moon/5Page28.pdf

    .
    Lunar soil is rich in oxides of silicon, calcium and iron.
    In fact, 43% of the mass of lunar soil is oxygen.
    One of the most common lunar minerals is ilmenite
    a mixture of iron, titanium, and oxygen.
    To separate ilmenite into its primary constituents,
    we add hydrogen and heat the mixture.
    This hydrogen reduction reaction is given by the ‘molar’ equation:
    FeTiO3 + H2 — > Fe + TiO2 + H2O
    .
    what about water or hydrogen in Mars ?
    maybe not as we expected before

    http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2002/28may_marsice/

    .
    May 28, 2002: Using instruments on NASA’s 2001 Mars Odyssey spacecraft,
    surprised scientists have found enormous quantities of buried treasure lying just under the surface of Mars
    enough water ice to fill Lake Michigan twice over
    And that may be only the tip of the iceberg.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 33 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.