October 31, 2014 at 12:48 pm #28039
Need to pick the collective brain on here if possible!?!
I’m working on something right now to try and address the ‘blind spots’ in Urban (and wilderness) survival. I’d love to get thoughts and opinions on what you think are some of the essential skills that many people do not think about developing…?
I’ll give an example. In a SHTF scenario, often essential assets/resources will be seized and controlled by criminals. It may be the ONLY option to deal with these people to get what you need, but I see VERY few looking into ways and accepted existing methods on how to deal with discussion/exchange/purchases from the criminal element…
I REALLY appreciate you taking time to share your thoughtsOctober 31, 2014 at 1:35 pm #28043
This has been discussed a few times under the black market topic and of course opinions vary. The open black market as we see it today is largely just cash sales by entrepreneurial types, not criminals. I agree with you that essential resources will be controled by hardasses looking to get rich off of the suffering of others. Most of these people will extort as much from you as they can. So are you willing to give up everything else to get that item? If you have never dealt with this element of society in the past it’s probably not something I would be considering now as a posible venue of supply. What ever you think they will have that you will need, get it now.
If you must have interaction with criminals you can expect to get ripped off and placed in danger. There are true psychopaths floating around willing to hurt you for fun. Lots more than you think. These guys are why you need arms to start with. If you are somewhere low life’s frequent you never know who will walk in the door. Most low life’s are willing to rip you off and hurt you, but there are other guys that scare the sh-t out of the average dirt ball that you don’t want to be anywhere near by when they show up.
One of the edicts of the drug trade is to never sell to someone you don’t know, that way you can’t get popped. I would never buy from someone I didn’t know in a SHTF for the same reason.
That’s my 2cOctober 31, 2014 at 2:49 pm #28051
Actually, I see the “black market” as the only “free market” left. What we have now, is not a free market but a very heavily government regulated market which is full of government granted monopolies and subsidy seekers. Presently, I regularly use the black market for items I cannot get in the government regulated market, like raw milk or uninspected meats.
Most people buying from the black market are doing so for the same reason. The people selling into the black market are — for the most part — normal people. The black market sellers only “crime” is that they are selling something that state has decided that the citizens shouldn’t have.
All markets are based on voluntary transactions between free individuals. As a buyer, I am willing to pay black market price for the item in question. If I don’t like the price, I don’t buy. No one in the black market has ever “forced” me to buy their products. In contrast, I have been “forced” to buy government services through my taxes and through government granted monopolies.
I wouldn’t fear the black market seller. I’m sure their are some unsavory characters in the black market, just like I know there are unsavory characters in the government controlled market. Personally, I like the freedom of the black market better… and I have more choice of products.October 31, 2014 at 3:05 pm #28066
Do you think that the same structure will remain in a shtf scenario, everything else is going to change why would the open market not be affected? There will always be normal people trying to barter goods in markets, but levels of desperation will alter the equation.October 31, 2014 at 4:17 pm #28068
Are you asking a rhetorical question, or are you asking my opinion?
I don’t predict the future… My experience is very few people can, with any precision.
I’m saying, get some experience buying from people in the black market now. Build those trusted relationships now. Learn how to remain quiet about your sources.
As for the future, it will have to take care of itself… You can’t tell what people will do in a stressful or new situation.October 31, 2014 at 5:08 pm #28071
My question could be either. I don’t believe the open markets you experience today will exist after a short period of time in a true failure of civility. “All markets are based on voluntary transactions between free individuals. As a buyer, I am willing to pay black market price for the item in question. If I don’t like the price, I don’t buy. No one in the black market has ever “forced” me to buy their products.” And probably not just taken what you have either.
Toby anticipates dealing with criminals in control of resources and I believe that will transpire. Gaining the trust of a criminal or they of me is not how I want to spend my time, nor do I advise others to do so. It is a Pandora’s box. edit:I’m not giving you armchair advice.October 31, 2014 at 5:16 pm #28072
I agree with 74, you will not find any black market the way they are set up today. Criminal will hit them left and right, the people that sale in the black market will be afraid of the criminals knowing what they have, where they live and the cash they have which maybe silver or gold.
In a SHTF it will be many dangers and many criminals that will offer you food for silver or gold or weapons only to see what you have and shoot you to take all you have.
Like 74 said only deal with the people you know so make connections now for the future and start storing what you need now.October 31, 2014 at 6:42 pm #28074
Selco’s course gave me a lot of insight on how to deal with trades. In SHTF… everything will be the black market… and everyone you buy from is a potential thief at best, murderer at worst. Including people you ‘thought you knew.” Only your most trusted (typically family, maybe neighbors and best friends) associates will be actually trustworthy. Everyone else you should assume potentially dangerous. Statistics show that upwards of 11% of all people have latent sociopathic tendencies that will be not so latent once society breaks down. (I believe that’s somewhere in this forum, too).
It goes without saying that you should be armed when trading/buying.
Rule 1 is not to appear ‘weak.’ Let your stance, tone, armament, etc. demonstrate that you’re not somebody who should be messed with.
Rule 2 is not to be too tough, because some people will target you to gain fear/respect in the area. Rule 3 is to keep transactions quick and simple; the less time you spend in their presence, the better.
Rule 4 would be to never allow them to know if you need something badly. If they know you’re desperate, they’ll make you pay dearly.
Rule 5 is to never reveal to a buyer/seller anything about yourself or your group (and is a good general rule.)
That’s kind of my quick and basic breakdown. Prices will be something you learn on the go, too hard to predict what things will be truly worth until the SHTF.October 31, 2014 at 7:02 pm #28075
I don’t know what kind of black market you envision in the future, but the present black market is all around you and most people don’t even see it… and the people working in the black market aren’t violence criminals. The black market is made up of private sales between individuals or small groups. The black market sales happen in private homes, out of the back of vehicles, or through private contractual agreements. If I don’t agree on the price, I am not forced to buy. Just like today, if someone rips-me-off, they will do it just once. I won’t be doing business with them in the future… and I will tell all my friends about how I got ripped-off. As for violence people, I don’t do business with them now, and I don’t expect to do business with them in the future.
(People involved in the black market may be defined as “criminals” because they are supplying goods and services the state does not want provided or these people are breaking state-run monopolies. Personally, I don’t see the crime in providing a service or product to a willing customer. See victimless crime: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victimless_crime.)
Trying to get raw milk for my family is how I learned about the virtues of the black market. I now happily shop in the black market wherever and whenever I want. If you want more information please read Food Freedom. See just how easy it is to be called an “criminal” by the modern nation state: http://eatkamloops.org/food-freedom-the-politics-of-food/.October 31, 2014 at 7:05 pm #28077
By the way, it’s really bad for business when you kill your customers.October 31, 2014 at 7:51 pm #28083
WhiteKnight, I think those are really good rules for trading.
I wanted to comment on “latent sociopathic tendencies”. In the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM: IV) the rates of Antisocial Personality Disorder (male) and Boardline Personality Disorder (female) is about 1.4%. Most people with APD and BPD are imprisoned by 40 years of age so they are usually out of circulation. People with APD and BPD can be quite frightening but so are many people with a serious mental illness that include delusion.
If you want to learn about the people that really freak me out, read Obedience of Authority: The Experiment That Challenged Human Nature by Stanley Milgram. Learn the percentage of “normal” people willing to electrocute you to death, if an authority figure says its okay to do so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment.
When I learned about this study my first question was not the characteristics of the people that did the electrocuting but the character of the people that didn’t… That was one scary experiment.
“Milgram summarized the experiment in his 1974 article, “The Perils of Obedience”, writing:
The legal and philosophic aspects of obedience are of enormous importance, but they say very little about how most people behave in concrete situations. I set up a simple experiment at Yale University to test how much pain an ordinary citizen would inflict on another person simply because he was ordered to by an experimental scientist. Stark authority was pitted against the subjects’ [participants’] strongest moral imperatives against hurting others, and, with the subjects’ [participants’] ears ringing with the screams of the victims, authority won more often than not. The extreme willingness of adults to go to almost any lengths on the command of an authority constitutes the chief finding of the study and the fact most urgently demanding explanation.
Ordinary people, simply doing their jobs, and without any particular hostility on their part, can become agents in a terrible destructive process. Moreover, even when the destructive effects of their work become patently clear, and they are asked to carry out actions incompatible with fundamental standards of morality, relatively few people have the resources needed to resist authority.”October 31, 2014 at 9:02 pm #28093
C, Now and then are probably going to be different. The people you buy milk from are not going to turn into criminals, no one is saying that. However for example; (many years ago) a guy came to where I work one day that knows the owner of the company. Starts a fist fight for fun then looks at me and says “he’s planning on hitting me in the head with one of those pipes” He was right.
A few days later he was interrupted in a breaking and entry by the home owner. In the scuffle the perp bites the end of the guys nose off and swollows it. Days later it takes 10 cops to subdue him and 3 are hospitalized. People like this will take over what every they can find, a store or gas station or the power plant. These are the people you better have a mind set to deal with in some manner.October 31, 2014 at 10:09 pm #28094
Leaving aside criminals and trading and all that, my belief is that not being fixated on one idea, method or outcome is essential. Sometimes things just don’t work the way we want them to, and it requires an adaptation in plans. Many people are not capable of making a mental shift and going forward with something new. Some people probably have a natural ability in this area however the rest of the people will need to learn it to survive.October 31, 2014 at 10:13 pm #28095
74, Stanley Milgram’s experiment shows that 60-66% of “nice” people can do heinous acts if an authority figure tells them to do so… So, my black market milk producer could become violence under a stressful situation or sell me out to the authorities and let them violate me. We cannot predict who will sell us out. If we think we are wise enough to see into people’s hearts during times of stress, we might to our horror, learn how wrong we can be.
As for the evil character in your story, people like that usually give lots of warning. I stay well away from people like that.October 31, 2014 at 10:17 pm #28097
I can see valid points in both C & 74’s positions. Some aspects of Black Market dynamics will probably change over time.
The original question seemed to be about skills or lack there of. I recommend the book “Violence, Blunders and Fractured Jaws (Advanced Awareness Techniques and Street Etiquite) by Marc “Animal” MacYoung, as a good guide to reading others in dangerous environments. Marc’s philosophy is the best fight is the one you avoid, he focuses on seeing bad situations coming and being somewhere else.
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