February 8, 2015 at 6:36 pm #36094
The recent thread on the G2 RIP ammo had me thinking of different ammo and its abilities.
Over the years many different bullet designs have come and gone, some stayed albeit in limited use.
The first commercialy successful was the Glaser Safety Slug. Originally hand made and assembled, Col. Jack Canon had an impressive warranty, if someone received one round of return fire after a thoracic hit, he’d give them a brand new .357 revolver. It went unclaimed.
Still made today, by CorBon, they are an excellent round that has been redesigned for different guns and needs. And while still a limited penetration round, they fill that need well.
When I lived in an apartment complex, my house auto was loaded with the 9mm Silver loading. It had performed well on critters and was backed up by mags of conventional ammo.
The next that comes to mind is Joe Zambone’s MagSafe.
Another prefragmented design, it may penetrate deeper than the GSS, but it isn’t as feed reliable, the wide flat nose giving feed problems in some autos.
My house revolver was loaded with .44 Special SWAT loads, in critter testing it had the fastest effect of any bullet tried, including rifles assuming no spine hits.
Both bullets the GSS and MS are well worth a look, despite the price if you need a limited penetration round. Those thatbuse them, seem to like them but their use must be kept in context, these are not bullets that can shoot through walls to hit the bad guy. Or a good guy, that’s the way they are designed.
FYI, my house auto is still loaded with the GSS, despite the price.
Other rounds that were excellent but didn’t or haven’t caught on include the Safe Stop, designed by Jim Cirillo of NYPD Stakeout Squad fame, it was a radical departure from conventional design in that it started as a full caliber wadcutter and would then expand. It was the least unlikely to ricochet of any conventional non pre-fragmented design.
The design sadly died with Cirillo, the one small manufacturer who was making them stopped.
The RBCD bullet shows some promise, the phenominally high velocity and sintered bullet design combine to make a package that shows some promise in the limited number of shootings its been used in.
Cirillo was a fan of this bullet before his death.
The RWS/Geco BAT bullet is a design that has seen some success worldwide but little in the US. Until the CorBon PowR Ball load the BAT was the bullet most likely to feed in all gun designs.
Originally a single bullet and standard velocity, it has been expanded to multiple loadings and designs.
The Hydra Shok bullet, a Tom Burczynski design like many modern defensive hollow points, started as a gimmick bullet of sorts that was picked up by Federal and refined with Burczynski’s help.
Some designs have fallen by the wayside, some fizzled out, others have stood the test of time. The Black Talon for example, a fair design at best, despite all the hype, became one of the premier defense loads after some design revision and load development.
The Ranger T-loads are the result.
While I can’t get into the RIP design currently, a different version where the trocar petals remain intact on the bullet proper may prove effective.
Your thoughts?February 8, 2015 at 7:32 pm #36102
As time goes on , they may change the design , kind of natural progression of industry . They are going to make rifle rounds , they have a 300 already .
Shotgun ammo slug , I have had decent results with the Hexolit 32 . I have some Dragons Breath for amusement .February 8, 2015 at 9:39 pm #36109
I will buy some of the Hexolit 12 ga to try them out.February 8, 2015 at 10:01 pm #36111
This is a pretty good article on current defense ammo designs, so as long as we’re discussing hollow points and frangible rounds, people might like more info in general.
Winchester, Remington, Speer, & everyone else were on the cusp of modern bullet design when Black Talon came out. I still have a box of 44 magnum and 45 acp. I it saved just because they quit making it and thought it would be one of those collectables items.February 9, 2015 at 1:16 am #36116
74, Great article, I remember watching on TV live when “In 1986, multiple FBI agents were involved in a lengthy gun battle with two armed suspects in and around vehicles in Miami, Florida, that left two FBI agents dead and five others wounded.” It was incredible.
Some good information in this article.February 9, 2015 at 1:46 pm #36162
Some people spend more time debating which ammo is ,more deadly this expansion that. Shot placement and shooting till they drop is worth more than any magic bullet. And yes in a gunfight you don’t have the luxury of picture perfect shot placement but tactics and movement will help.February 9, 2015 at 1:57 pm #36167
Glocker very true, make holes where they count.February 9, 2015 at 2:55 pm #36171
Glocker, You are right. You can have the cheapest ammo but if you can shoot them till they drop then who cares what ammo you used.February 9, 2015 at 3:02 pm #36173
Due to “my previous life” working in the medical field, I ran into quite a few GSW. These were all prehospital where I was the one plugging the holes and trying to stabilize the patient for transport. Here are a few things that I realized based upon observations. This isn’t scientific and I am not sure how many other paramedic/Navy Corspmen came to the same conclusions, but this is what I have seen:
1) Stopping power is really misleading. I have seen people shot with .22 mag that went down immediately where those shot with .45 auto didn’t. My observations are that a lot really depends on the person shot. It is now my belief that the more “stopping power” isn’t nearly as important as the shock and fear that can be put into the person getting shot. That shock and fear is what disallows the person with lead poisoning to either ignore it or keep coming at you. Stories of individuals on drugs getting shot multiple times and still coming at the shooter help to universally support my hypothesis. These people were beyond shock or fear so the damage from bullets was mechanical only.
2) Getting shot hurts (yes…. .22 lr to the leg when I was a kid), but the pain was easily ignored. Some people I have seen shot with .22 lr fall to the ground and you would have thought that they had been gored by a bull or a tiger was eating them alive from the sounds of it. One guy I worked on had been shot by a .44 mag and even though a good sized hole was through his shoulder, he was helping to hold the dressing while I bandaged. He even tried to set me up with his niece/cousin/relative (can’t remember which anymore) while I worked on him. There were not any physical indications of shock. He just didn’t get too worried since he wasn’t in too much distress.
3) Gimmick rounds are just that in my mind….. A gimmick. Having hunted for my entire life, I believe that it is more important to match up your cartridge with your usage than to go in and buy a name brand. If you want penetration then you get a bullet designed for that. If you want a big hole, then get something desiged for big holes. “Defense rounds” are rounds built to the designer’s specifications and understanding of what a self defense round should be. They haven’t matched up their product to what your individual needs might be. They shoot some ballistic gel, build up a marketing campaign and then push their product upon the public. IMO, if you want self defense rounds for your particular needs you should do the research and reload…..
So, in summary based upon my observations and opinion:
If you want to shoot through cars: get a .50 BMG and AP bullets loaded close to max. If you don’t want penetration set up a round that flattens out and dissipates the energy to the target quickly. If you want something in between then do your research and don’t ignore the concept of reloading your own.
******Some of those expensive “defense rounds” do look menacing, though. Hydroshocks with that little dohickey in the middle of the hollow point? Ouch on any level.
*******Another edit****** Here are the rounds that I use as a self defense round inside my home. They don’t penetrate walls like other rounds do, hit like a brick due to the massive expansion, and I can reload a bunch of them quite cheaply. My other self defense firearm is a 12 gauge with lead #2 shot. I feel that this combo of “stopping power” and “penetration” through sheetrock is as large of a pellet as I want to go inside my home. Many will “poo-poo” my choices, but that is why there are options…. No one can agree on a single item.
http://ageofdecadence.comFebruary 9, 2015 at 3:11 pm #36178
sledjockey, Good information, I have some police friends that tell me the same story. One told me that a drugged out man about 180 to 190 lbs went at him with a knife. He shot him 8 times before he dropped to the floor only 2 feet away. So very important is to keep shooting till they drop.February 9, 2015 at 3:39 pm #36183
Last year two friends and myself did some bullet testing. We made “shooting blocks” of newspaper and duct tape. Each block was 12 inches thick. One friend used Glaser 9mm, another friend used 9mm JHP and I used 9mm Hydo Shok. Standing at 20 feet we shot at the blocks. Each person took a turn shooting into each block. After 12 shots we peeled back the layers on each block. My Hydo Shoks penetrated the least. Next was the JHP and the Glaser had the best penetration. No penetration was deeper than 6 inches.
Mushrooming was the least on the Hydo Shoks and best on the Glaser. The Hydo Shoks and JHP’s both showed plugging from the paper. The little ball in the Glaser did it’s job!
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