September 6, 2015 at 7:09 pm #43685
Please share your thoughts about article here.September 6, 2015 at 8:10 pm #43687
Thank you, Selco, for the thought provoking commentary and unanswered questions. Your article leaves many of the either/or arguments out in the cold – it’s just not as simple as either we take them in or we don’t. I’ve had many thoughts, particularly today, and like you, largely without definitive answers. Just for starters:
1. I turned on the TV briefly this afternoon just to see what’s going on while I ate a few bites of easily obtainable, delicious food (unavailable to most of these refugees). One commentator made a wonderful observation about the large number of Vietnamese refugees we took into the U.S. after the Vietnam undeclared conflict. He noted that about 15 years later, California had a number of high school class valedictorians with the last name of Nugyen. Indeed….
2. I well remember as a young child when we welcomed Hungarian refugees (1954/55) to our school. Their clothes were different from ours, they looked a little different from most of us, and they didn’t speak any English. Of course, Hungarian wasn’t taught in our schools, so we were all at an impasse as far as communication went. But I remember going with some of my classmates and some of the older kids just instinctively trying to make friends without the ability to verbally communicate. Sadly, I have no recollection of them still being at our school the following year (or perhaps even through that first year). I don’t know what happened to them. I contrast that with Hungary’s current prime minister who said that refugees “should not come” to his country (he’s clearly not old enough to remember, nor has he apparently studied and cared enough about his own former countrymen’s history).
3. And far more recently I remember an Army physician who was tasked with helping to treat our emotionally scarred Soldiers who’d returned from war, and who then methodically murdered 13 of them, while injuring many more. Or the son of Kuwaiti immigrants who was only about a year old when his country was overrun by Iraq, only to be saved by the United States military. Then that young Kuwaiti killed five U.S. military recruiters in Tennessee. Or perhaps one might recall the recent stories of people in their teens and twenties that have gone (or been intercepted as they tried to go) to be trained by ISIS and other similar groups, many with plans to bring back and use their new “skills” to destroy everyday Americans that had welcomed them.
4. And of course there is the gut-wrenching photo of the little 3 year old Syrian boy, face down in the sand. We don’t see already-dead victims of crime or other tragedy in U.S. newspapers or on TV, yet it’s OK to show this little boy very up close, and very personal. You’re right, Selco, some are more worried about whales than human beings, it seems. But I’ve wondered sometimes if that’s “easier” to deal with – after all, we can’t relate to whales or even abused pet dogs or cats – they aren’t us. We can view them with compassion and horror while remaining at least somewhat detached, and DO something. Looking at other human beings is perhaps much harder because they’re human, and we tend to just shut down emotionally. It would be too much to bear if we really thought about it. In some respects, the term “denial,” so well understood by families of addicts, may fit many of us when it comes to the human crisis. We can’t handle facing it, so we “turn off” emotionally, reject the refugees so we don’t have to deal with it, and move along with our relatively comfortable lives, occasionally clucking about how terrible “it” is “over there.” Most of us, especially those in the U.S. and modern Western Europe, cannot relate to true human tragedy and suffering, unless they’ve been deployed as part of a military force to Iran, Afghanistan, the Balkans, etc. We can’t emotionally deal with it – so we don’t.
Those are just some of the many thoughts I’ve had recently, particularly this weekend. And like you, I don’t have good answers, despite knowing what the most correct answer is. It’s much too difficult to apply the most correct answer when it isn’t just a simple decision that will turn into a success story. There’s far more than just inconvenience involved – sometimes it’s a matter of even downright physical safety and/or survival (both for the refugees and for those opening their homes and nations).
But one answer that certainly can be undertaken by most is carefully researching relief agencies, and making donations to those that appear to be the least profit-minded, and the most directly serving of basic human needs, as compassionately as possible. I cannot do everything – but I can do something.September 6, 2015 at 8:47 pm #43691
The current population movement certainly makes a person wonder what long term and short term affects will be created. On the immediate time frame simply providing suitable housing is a logistical problem as is employment. Where do a million new jobs come from?
Population movements have changed the culture of Europe and the US throughout history. People were displaced by more aggressive cultures and moved elsewhere, and new populations took over. How that will workout now with few if any unpopulated places is sure to create friction.September 6, 2015 at 10:17 pm #43692
I don’t think we can know what is the right or wrong answer at the time we make a choice as concerns refugees. Time will bear out what was right and what was wrong, but here and now we can’t know for sure. There are some rather large clues however and regretfully the current waves of Middle Eastern and African refugees do not represent the typical refugee populations of yesteryear.
For those of us in the US, some of our ancestors may have been refugees rather than run of the mill immigrants, the Famine Irish for example. There was a period in which Germans came here fleeing civil war in Germany. Cuban’s fled Castro. GS mentioned Vietnamese and Hungarians. And so forth. In most cases those refugees, like regular immigrants, assimilated and became Americans. Each wave added a little of their culture to the US as they themselves became American. There is always a bit of culture shock at first but within a generation or two there is a blending of the immigrant culture and the then American cultural norm and a new normal arises. That process is currently underway with Hispanic immigrant populations. They’re in process of becoming Americans and America is adding a Hispanic flavor to the culture. 20 years ago if you asked me if I liked Mexican food, I wouldn’t have had a clue as to what it even was. Now it’s practically mainstream, even for people like me that has never even met a Mexican.
The current problem Europe is facing, and the US too to a lesser extent, is that the Muslim and African refugees are not assimilating, and in the case of the Muslims, they don’t even want to assimilate. Even worse, after the Muslim refugees are settled in, they are demanding that the native populations change their culture so as to come in line with Muslim culture. This makes the current situation in Europe all the more precarious. To do the humanitarian thing and take in unlimited numbers of refugees may come at the expense of losing their own culture and potentially their form of govt in another couple generations due to the demographics of the situation. Europe is in a tough situation. Here in the US one needs only to look at what has happened to the communities that took in large numbers of Somalians. At the time it was the humane thing to do but it has been nothing short of a disaster for those communities.September 7, 2015 at 4:25 am #43694
This event promises a grim future for everyone involved. On one hand, you can’t blame the people for running from bombs blowing up their city. What would you do? On the other hand, the sheer number and rate at which they are coming no country could absorb. There will be immediate effects and there will be effects that will not be felt for many years. I remember when many of the refugees from Katrina were brought to Houston. I believe it was around 150-200,000. Most had lost everything and all of them just wanted a dry place to be. Can’t say as I blame them. One of the first things we noticed was an uptick in violent crime. It increased 20% almost overnight. Many of the food banks that provided help for the homeless and under privileged in the Houston area were soon tapped out because of all the new mouths to feed. Then came the emergency EBT cards. That turned into a free for all. People were double dipping and getting multiple cards. People were being robbed of there EBT cards. It was crazy. The logistics of the situation were a nightmare. There will be similar results with this event as well. Too many people too fast. The thing that was the worst about all of it was when things dried out in New Orleans and people could start putting their lives back together most of the thugs stayed in Houston. I mean why leave, they were getting free money from the government, many got FEMA trailers to live in and the didn’t have to do anything. Why go back and work hard to rebuild when they could sit on their butts here and live for free, no hard work involved. There will be many in this mass exodus that will never go back home. One of the scariest things to me about all of it is how easily ISIS will just blend in with the stampede of people. As long as they act like a refugee they will be shuttled all over Europe. I am sure they are using this event to their utmost benefit. The long term effects will be that whole areas will change demographics. Communities will change. Most of the refugees are muslims. We have already seen how once muslims move into an area and settle down they start trying to bend the local culture around them. Look at France. We may be witnessing the muslim takeover of the EU. What will happen with the EU’s economy. It is in shambles now. Ad the huge financial burden of caring for these people, the lack of jobs for them and you have the makings of a collapse.September 7, 2015 at 4:57 am #43695
Fudge, a long and fairly well written response eaten by the tablet.
Nobody likes refugees, even other refugees.
And unlike legal immigrants through normal channels, you don’t know what you are getting.
Much like our yearly visit by the rainbow children, some are pedophilic dope dealing theives, while others are just brain dead hippy wannabes trying to recreate what their grandparents had, and failing.
For their time here, thefts skyrocket, you don’t dare walk down wind for all the patchouli oil and body odor, and the panhandling and freeloading, they wear out their welcome in no time, minutes generally.
And that’s from those who speak the language and know the customs, even if they choose to ignore them. I’d trade them for romani in a heartbeat, at least they don’t excrete where they live.
I wish the European residents luck and god speed, it is going to get very bloody, very quickly.September 7, 2015 at 6:47 am #43696
Thanks GS. Very good.
My main point is that actually we can not do too much, this may simply be one of those big events that gonna change lot of things, and changes gonna be bad probably.
Also good points from others too. Europe have some dark history when it comes to some things, and it is easy to say that drastic measures need to be implemented here, but drastic measures changes rules of the game, and then simply chaos is coming.
If society go drastic in order to prevents its own way of living,then with those drastic measures gonna already change their own way of living, for all people. And it is bad again. There are simply no way of winning here.September 8, 2015 at 4:45 am #43697
I think it is significant that the previous posts have noted that most of us (in the US) have had grandparents that immigrated–but with the goal of assimilating into a culture that they respected and admired. That gave them opportunities they longed for. The difference with some of the current ‘immigrants’ is that many of them insist that the culture change to fit them…and the worst problem is with those whose underlying intent is to completely take over the culture they enter. Or take over the world. Professed desire for ‘equality’ and ‘rights’ are merely a steppingstone to dominance. A new form of ‘manifest destiny’ with cruelty and violence once power is secured. As most of you state, this will not end well.September 8, 2015 at 10:27 am #43698
It is difference that gonna make problems here.
Large numbers of people coming somewhere have tendency to change things in their favor.September 8, 2015 at 10:40 am #43699
These are not just refugees escaping. This article places a whole new twist to the problem.
Saudi official: ‘We are ignoring the issue as a strategic maneuver.
If these refugees go and settle in the West then they will take the
beacon of light i.e. Islam, with them… what we are doing is waiting for them to set up camp so that they can show these infidel nations how to save themselves from kufr…'”
September 8, 2015 at 10:54 am #43700
- This reply was modified 3 years, 11 months ago by 74.
An other article warning of the invasion force mixed into the migrating population.
“The Syrian operative claimed more than 4,000 covert ISIS gunmen had been smuggled into western nations – hidden amongst innocent refugees.”September 8, 2015 at 2:53 pm #43702
More questions (mostly just rhetorical):
1. Why does there appear to be a massively disproportionate number of young, adult, able-bodied males in all the pictures we see?
2. Why are other nations spilling the blood of their own young, adult, able-bodied males in alleged defense of nations that are exporting their own potential defenders?
3. How are these beleaguered “refugees” able to maintain cell phone accounts, afford the cell phones in the first place, and also pay for the apparently expensive clothing including shoes that many Americans and Europeans can’t afford?
4. Why aren’t the large majority of “refugees” women and small children, asking only for temporary safety until their husbands and fathers back home can re-secure their own homeland?
I’m not liking most of the reasonable answers. I think about the “poor” Tsarnayev brothers, whose parents were able to travel back and forth from their “dangerous” homeland to the U.S., as well as the older brother (known to both US and Russian agencies). Why aren’t these people fighting for their own countries? What’s the real motive behind far too many of them? No, I don’t doubt that there are very legitimate cases where people barely escaped, have nothing but the clothes on their backs, etc. But the pictures seem to tell a very different overall story. Buyer beware….September 8, 2015 at 3:09 pm #43703
There is a seismic shift in the world population. Europe is being overrun by the Middle East, North America is being overrun by Central and South America, and China is expanding outward in the Pacific Rim. As others have stated we can’t know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. If these people are seeking a better life and want to work for it, then good can come from it. On the other hand if the goal is to spread Islam and Socialism then the world is headed for a dangerous place. As always I pray for our children and grandchildren, they are going to live in a different world than we have lived in.September 9, 2015 at 12:06 am #43717
As always I pray for our children and grandchildren, they are going to live in a different world than we have lived in.
Yes, but they will adjust for better or worse when the changes are incremental. We baby boomers already live in a world very different than the one we grew up in. The spread of Islam though is going to end up in violent conflict given it is fundamentally incompatible with Western society. They want our riches but not the culture that created those riches. If they prevail I fear a new Dark Age will engulf the world.September 9, 2015 at 12:37 am #43718
All this reminds me of the movie “World War Z.” Where, like ants, they climb a very tall wall by using the bodies of others. It’s a wave that will not stop until all motion is over.
What am I doing? Buying more beans, cornbread mix and bullets.
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