July 22, 2014 at 8:16 pm #19673
Let s discuss again about good and bad things of being in rural or urban settings when SHTF and where you plan to be when SHTF and why.July 22, 2014 at 9:46 pm #19685
Selco: This is concerning to those of us who live in rural/”frontier” towns—-what do WE do when a bunch of “preppers” show up, thinking to join us? We don’t know them, they’ve just come from a city, and though they say the right things and are sporting bug-out bags, we still aren’t looking for folks to join us.
The resources around us, we see as “ours”. We need them for us who live here, we’ve worked to produce and preserve them. We know each other well, and have our plans too. We aren’t going anywhere, as we have what we need right here. But we don’t have enough to give away to hordes from the cities. Unfortunately THEIR scarce resources now become OUR scarce resources too, and we’ll be fighting other preppers for them. This sounds AWFUL.July 22, 2014 at 10:02 pm #19699
It is always easier to be in the wilderness or in rural areas. There are simply fewer people to kill you. It truly boils down to that.July 22, 2014 at 10:14 pm #19700
You say “So sorry! Keep moving!”July 22, 2014 at 10:23 pm #19713
Isabel, we all gonna have to make some hard decisions when SHTF, when it comes to me and my family or strangers choice is easy.July 22, 2014 at 10:41 pm #19716
I believe Selco’s points are well made. In fact, I admit I am somewhat biased on this point, and that’s why I am where I am. Because I believe the rural areas will be more suited for survival whatever crises is ahead of us. A better opportunity to resupply water & food. The probability of some game, if even for a short time. The chance to have a garden, and access to the local wild plant population.
But regardless of whether you are in an urban or rural area, the same concerns will rear their ugly head. Water, food, shelter, and security will always be over-riding concerns for everyone. And I know this probably sounds a bit cold (and I’m sorry for that), but Isabel has a valid point. We have worked hard building what we have, and cannot allow anyone to just wander in and put our family and friends lives in jeopardy just because they were too lazy or not smart enough to prepare for their own.
On other prepping websites I have heard so many people giving a variety of excuses why they can’t leave the city or the suburbs. They watch the news and understand the political crises we are in right now, they see how things are going along the border, and in the large cities and suburban areas, and they know the serious situation this nation is in financially. They know it will be tough, yet they would rather give their excuses for not moving than to leave the comfort of their job, and the nice home or apartment they have scored for themselves, and go somewhere where they will have the opportunity to find small town or farm and raise a garden, store up food and water, and get ready for what they have already agreed they see coming down the road.
And this is people that already call themselves preppers. And what do many of them plan to do? They plan to BUG OUT! Bug out to where? To our communities? To our homes? I don’t think so. Imagine what it will be like with those that have never prepped a day in their lives?
As far as I am concerned, if they lived in the city when things go down the toilet, then that was their decision. We are already prepped for family & friends we want around, and would prefer not to be burdened with a bunch of people that should have known better, but didn’t care until it was too late. They will more than likely have no supplies, no weapons, no skills, and, obviously, not a lick of common sense. And there will be little opportunity from their perspective to develop relationships built on trust. In short, they’re out of luck.July 22, 2014 at 10:42 pm #19717
I’m not going anywhere near a city, if I can help it…
1. Cities grow and produce nothing. Everything has to be imported into a city. Food, potable water, fuel, everything has to be imported from somewhere else.
2. Cities have about a 3 day supply of what they do have.. after that, you’re suckin’… even that huge lake in New York’s Central Park? All those billions of gallons of water? It would last the citizens of NYC exactly ONE DAY before they drank it dry…
3. Cities are a giant Kill Box. Yes, it is possible to survive it. Our Selco is living proof. But it’s about playing the odds. In the city, the odds are against you.
4. Goes to the Kill Box, but in a fair sized city, you would need virtually a small army to keep complete security and defense 100% of the time… example: for one guard post to be manned 24/7, you need at a minimum 3 people. One on duty for 12 hours, one off duty for 12 hours and one relief man.
Best case scenario would be to screen the newcomers for useful skills. Doctors. Nurses. Dentists. Engineers. Chemists. Carpenters. Even farmers. Folks to skip? I’m showing my bias, but: Lawyers, anyone involved in government, non-Americans, etc..
They might close ranks – take all of us or none of us – and in that case, then take none. If you take everyone with a sob story, you will get picked clean in a very short period of time… don’t forget that they just might be faking it. Most folks like that have seen the shows and know the lingo… they could have easily waylaid a genuine group, took their stuff and are trying to fool you into accepting them and/or drop your guard…
I know it sucks thinking like that, but you’re going to have to suspect everyone who isn’t part of your group… at least at first.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1July 22, 2014 at 10:49 pm #19718
Hi Selco and Others,
Another great topic – urban or rural.
Selco, your urban experience was Sarajevo. As we touched on in a personal e mail, I have visited Sarajevo. I know is is a European mid sized city, lots of apartments and residential density. Hilly, too.
There is someting between urban and rural and that is suburbia. And there are many kinds of suburbia. Some suburban locations have both plusses and minusses. Where I live here in Eugene, Oregon, we have great soil, climate and a fair number of others into social/political/economic transformation with permauclture being the operative word we use.
Some other suburban locations would appear to have few prospects for survial on site – too hot, too cold, too dry,,,,,
I am interested to hear from others if they live in suburbia and are making changes to where they live – trading grass for garden and edible landscaping, rain water catchment, passive solar redesign, collaborations between neighbors.
Here in my neighborhood, we have the beginnings of what suburbia could become. Of course, all bets are off if SHTF, but the more people who transform their properties and have functional relationships with nearby friends and neighbors, the better. This is not rural, but its not urban like Selco’s experience. Plus, we have a lot of great farm land within a couple miles, too.
And of course, many many people in the neighorhood who have no idea about SHTF.
Comments welcome – what people are doing in suburbia and where? Prospects of suburban SHTF?
My website – http://www.suburbanpermaculture.org
fotos, first two my place, others nearby
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.July 22, 2014 at 10:53 pm #19735
Malgus, totally agree! I noticed you mentioned the lake in Central Park, you know, the place where all the homeless and druggies hangout 24/7. Can you even imagine all the urine and oil and particulates from the air that washes into that lake every time it rains? Yuck! I would give them about 7 days max and then watch all the diseases break out.July 22, 2014 at 11:11 pm #19738
Permajan, we live on the edge of a small town. We have some lawn, but we have started growing a variety of edible wild plants as well as our regular garden. We are only a 3 min walk to a year round creek, have rain barrels set up under our gutters, and will be raising a few chickens for eggs and meat soon.
There are 4 Pecan trees in the yard that produce a good bushel of the nuts each year, as well as, attract a nice population of squirrels. There are also 2 mature apple trees available for harvest each year.
As far as the local neighbors, we have begun grooming them for working together whatever the event. Around here people are used to tornadoes, so they are also used to lending a helping hand when needed. This is a small town and I believe most people here will be willing to work together in a crisis. There is no question we will be bugging in and riding out the storm to whatever end there may be.
I believe Suburbia can work (and this depends on the neighbors working together), Have y’all looked into community gardening? What will you do if the city water system shuts down? How will y’all handle security among yourselves? Just some things to consider.July 22, 2014 at 11:24 pm #19739
The perpetual arguments, AR vs. AK, 1911 vs. Glock, 9mm vs. .45, Urban vs. Rural.
The answer is probably best found by the individual.
We all have our preferences, our styles of survival.
Some are more attuned to life in the concrete jungles, some to life with dirt under their finger nails.
Personally, I prefer the middle ground.
I hate cities but appreciate much of the services available there, hospitals, dentists, mechanics, etc.
Small towns, been there, done that. The biggest problem with small towns is the lack of jobs, for oneself and future generations. What are your kids going to do in ten years? Twenty?
I found a balance with a ‘city’ of 12,000 people. Small enough to know a large number of people, large enough to have a few good restaurants, a nice grocery store, a decent hospital, excellent schools (a must), and most importantly a sense of community that I hadn’t found anywhere else, be it 2000 people or 200,000.
Post-SHTF, this community will come and has come together, for a number of reasons.
I can’t say that about anywhere else I’ve found to date.
Family is very important, including extended families.
And post-SHTF, those connections, those groups will do more for general and personal survival than having a couple extra cases of bic lighters stashed.
And it of course also depends on what happens.
Yellowstone Super-volcano? Doesn’t matter for many what they do or plan for.
Hurricanes? Planning and gathering people and materials will definitely make a difference, no matter where you are.
Look around and make an honest evaluation of where you are and what might actually happen, and go from there.July 22, 2014 at 11:30 pm #19740
Hi Selco and everyone, I have been following you for some time now but have never posted before. I agree with you. I think Rural living is the only way to go if you are going to survive and keep thriving for any length of time. I “prep” it’s a way of life for me. Thinking ahead for any unknown is just smart. You never know what is going to happen down the road. Our country is going to hell in a hand basket and most people are still wearing their rose colored glasses. My friends think I am this cute little country girl that can shoot a gun, likes to raise chickens, ducks, rabbits and goats, but it is so much more. I hear, I will just head to your house when it all goes down. My response has been, you come here and you will be leaving in a body bag. Isn’t that the way our society works? Everyone wants someone else to do all the work for them. I can’t take them all in Selco, what do you tell these people that are your friends? If they would take me serious and start putting in the pot so to speak then sure if SHTF I would open my doors, but hey, don’t just show up expecting a handout. My plans were to bug in, but I am going to have to defend my rural dwelling like fort knox!July 22, 2014 at 11:35 pm #19752
When Unexpected Guests show up in a SHTF situation ….. Is this really an opportunity combined with a threat?
Rural residents may need additional people for security/watch, additional skills, and just plain man power. SHTF could consume huge amounts of time to defend against local and transient criminals and gangs, depending upon the location.
In suburban and urban environments, you may need your own group or a larger group just for defense. How many in the group is probably determined by resources on-hand and resources that can be acquired.
I live in a suburban area 20 minutes drive from a 3rd tier US city, population 75,000 and dropping.
My view is influenced by my SHTF assumptions:
a. Bugging Out turns me into a refugee and forces me to leave behind critical resources, neighbors, food, water, ammunition, weapons, tools and supplies behind. Bugging Out may place me and my family under the control of Federal or State authorities after confiscation of our weapons and supplies. We should Bug Out only just before we are forced to unless.
b. Vehicle fuel in a Bugging Out situation cuts my distance to around 1/2 vehicle distance capability … 200 miles. I cannot expect re-supply. This will not be enough distance to reach other family members or a safe region.
c. SHFT Situation. By week 3, possibly week 2, urban residents will have consumed all urban food & fuel resources and be raiding in groups along major travel corridors. Our community will be forced to form a militia and defend the community and/or neighboring communities. Our community will need additional people. This conflict period could last from 4-16 weeks, depending upon the conflict. The battles will be short, intense surprises. There are only 3 outcomes: raiders defeated, raiders subjugate the community, raiders move on. Conflict will subside and then become intermittent, but it will not stop. Security Operations will consume large amounts of man hours. Criminal activity will initially rise and then drop. More people will be needed to fight and support the community. This will get ugly quick and continue to be ugly. Our friends and neighbors are not prepared for any of this. We will have to “stabilize” our own community and should not expect outside help (Federal or State).July 22, 2014 at 11:46 pm #19765
Our area – the Piedmont – is basically rolling hills and drumlins. Farmland separated by smallish forests and the occasional river. Good country for growing stuff. Bad country to have to fight in if you’ve never been here before. You can only see to the next ridge, which might or might not have a very thick stand of woods on it. The whole area is crisscrossed with barbed wire fences, or regular wire fences topped with barbed wire. Buildings – houses, barns, sheds, etc, dot the landscape.
In short – It’s Downtown Ambush Central. From ridgeline to ridgeline is between 600 to 800 yards. Good country for snipers. Bad country for anyone with a .5.56mm rifle. When you get into the lows between the ridges – about 400 or so yards from the top of the next ridge, you’re probably in a cowfield or tobacco field with no cover whatsoever. Bad guys at the top? Means you’re having to fight uphill the whole way… retreating means also running uphill in the opposite direction with no cover… perfect country for dirty, smash-mouth fighting…
That’s the good news. The bad news is that because you can only see to the next ridge, there could be a whole swarm of folks on the other side and you’d never know it. Unless you are allied with someone who has control of that ground and are in contact with them… which is why I’m trying to get our whole little area here on the same page and organized for common support and defense…
The main artery going North/South cuts through several hills – meaning the road is flanked on either side by 30 to 40 foot vertical walls of crumbly limestone. Anyone who doesn’t see the tactical advantage of such a setup is willfully blind. And the road makes several cuts just like that, all within the space of a couple miles – perfect pre-positioned fallback points. It would be an easy thing to bring those vertical crumbly walls of limestone down into the road to block it to all vehicular traffic… at least for a time, anyways or until they (whoever “they” happen to be) figure out they can go around the choke points via secondary and tertiary roads…
Here.. the only pictures I have currently… shot off the back porch of our house, last winter. Shows the terrain… the pond in picture No. 2 isn’t mine. It’s the overflow from my pond, which isn’t shown.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.July 23, 2014 at 12:00 am #19768
You said this: There are only 3 outcomes: raiders defeated, raiders subjugate the community, raiders move on.
Unfortunately, there is a 4th option that you might not have thought of… and more unfortunately, it is the worst of all 4 options…
The first three outcomes are dependent on pitched engagements. You win bad guys lose. Bad guys win, you lose. Bad guys choose not to fight and move on.
4th option is that the bad guys hang around and harass you and yours. Bleed you slow. There is no way you can stay alert 24/7. Someone will fall asleep, sometime. Maybe they snipe you every once in awhile – just enough to keep you on edge. Lack of sleep will make you irritable, then slow witted, and then you start making mistakes. All the bad guys will need after a couple weeks of harassing you is a dark, stormy night and that will be all she wrote. Nobody willingly goes out into a pounding thunderstorm except bad guys and crazy people like me… it’s the perfect time. No pitched battles to lose, either. And harassment can be accomplished risking minimum of people while your main force is husbanded or resting comfortably elsewhere.
Just saying you need to start thinking like a bad guy and less like you… (who is not a bad guy…). If you can think of it, then so can they.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.