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  • #48281
    Toby C
    Toby C
    Survivalist
    member6

    Selcos latest article begins to tackle a BIG subject: Violence

    http://shtfschool.com/security/post-disaster-violence/

    Be sure to share your experience of violent encounters and lessons learned in the comments!

    #48284
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    Wow. Powerful article. Part of the reality of a SHTF scenario such as Selco experienced is that it is ongoing rather than being a singular event where the recovery begins as soon as whatever it was occurred. Part is that nobody is coming to the rescue to restore order such as occurs with singular events. The ethnic/racial/religious diversity that so many celebrate as the ideal today will come to haunt them in a breakdown of order such as Selco experienced. That diversity makes it is all the easier to see those not exactly like you as “other”.

    #48288
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    As we came home from church yesterday, we witnessed an act of extreme rudeness on the part of a person not ethnically similar to the other person against whom the act was aggressively targeted. There ended up being no violence, mainly because the target chose to disengage and go away – smart, even though the aggressor “won.” And that was the point.

    I made the comment to my wife that when lights are out, store shelves are already empty, police have long since given up and gone home to protect their own families, and there’s no likely end in sight, the very things I later read in Selco’s post last night would be happening. The pent-up aggression would come out without restraint, and the sociological experiments about infectious crowd behavior inciting more and more to do things they’d “never” normally do, would suddenly move out of the realm of sociological experiments into the realm of “normal.” It was actually a bit of a spooky thing to later read Selco’s excellent article after having had that brief discussion much earlier yesterday. “Society” ceases to exist at that point.

    The reason why PTSD is so prevalent in large wars is explained very easily in the manual that catalogs and describes all psychiatric disorders (the DSM). There are two sets of criteria, labeled “A” and “B” through “D.” The “A” criteria involve a description of the triggering circumstances, while the “B” through “D” criteria detail the various symptoms that can come as a result. A person must meet the criteria in “A” and at least a specified number of items in each of the “B” through “D” criteria in order to meet the requirements for that diagnosis. The “A” criteria are:

    the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death of serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others

    and

    the person’s response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror.

    The same would be expected among very normal, well put together people, in a SHTF scenario, not just wars without rules such as we see today. It’s not weakness that results in the PTSD, it’s extreme situations that exceed the designed capabilities of our human brains – things we were simply never meant to have to experience, particularly on an ongoing or repeated basis. The “B” through “D” criteria are merely normal reactions, therefore, to grossly abnormal experiences – the type described by Selco in his article. As he stated, one may be completely unwilling to take a human life – AND be placed in a situation where that becomes absolutely necessary. Or one may be strongly predisposed to help others in crisis situations, yet have to casually walk away and not get involved, in certain SHTF situations, for the sake of self-preservation, or the preservation of close friends or family members. In other words, when society breaks down, one’s ingrained personal “rules” must be suspended, with actions taken that go against every fiber of one’s being, and then the brain has to subsequently cope with what was done vs. what “should” have been done (under “ordinary” circumstances, which simply did not exist at the time).

    MB, your statement that “diversity makes it is all the easier to see those not exactly like you as ‘other,’ is spot on – and it is indeed a serious danger. Those “others” become the targets, the “rules” no longer exist, and the aftermath extends long after any order is restored – often lifetimes. You’re tentatively in much better shape in an area with little “diversity” compared to the City. Heaven help you if the “City” comes to you. In other areas, the tension is already here, even within neighborhoods themselves, where people largely stay to themselves (meaning “their own kind”) or interact only on a socially “polite” basis. When the social controls are no longer in play, the gloves come off, and it meets the “A” criteria in the PTSD diagnosis. People then either adapt and cope with the new rules (which really means “whatever works at the moment with no regard for any morality”), or they become victims. Coping with the aftermath gets dealt with only later. It’s ugly beyond written description, and tears at one’s heart to watch in others.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    #48306
    Profile photo of Brulen
    Brulen
    Survivalist
    member9

    Turn around and walk away didn’t seem to work for Will Smith. The other guy shot him in the back and then shot him some more. Apparently the guy was so worked up from another road rage incident Smith became collateral damage.

    Two black guys. Shouldn’t have been that much cultural diversity. Just an impulse to kill I guess.

    #48309
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Training is only one facet of the “solution”.

    Looking at New Orleans post-Katrina, we see a number of responses from LE alone in dealing with and reacting to the violence and situation.

    And no, we don’t need to discuss confiscation in this thread, this is about mindset.

    Those who picked up their families and ran, one can’t blame them.
    NO was a pit before the water, after was simply worse.

    Those who stayed had to face losing their homes, property, offices, everything they weren’t wearing in many cases, and still face the day. Some bent, some broke.

    And these are highly trained men (and women), who live by and enforce the law, suddenly forced to improvise.

    The problem? The law didn’t change because of a SHTF situation.
    But the people did. Just like the situation.

    Suddenly faced with having to deal with situations well outside of training, such as dealing with bodies that are getting ripe and no morgue, multiple shooters/looters of all types, and more.

    Mistakes were made, to be certain.
    But it also illustrates how even a situation that one knows is temporary can turn permanent in some people’s eyes.

    #48548
    Profile photo of Brulen
    Brulen
    Survivalist
    member9

    Trump is the heir to the throne. Republicans have accepted it. I think we can be assured the Obama hangover is about to get worse.
    Trump spilled the beans on Obama is his foreign policy address. Criminal president doing criminal actions.
    The mindset is no economic growth to speak. It’s been hidden by the politicians.
    Now it’s a disaster that’s going to make Katrina look like a pimple.

    Post disaster violence. 18,000 criminal illegals released on the streets. Syrians imported by the thousands. The drug cartel hit men loose in Ohio.

    It adds up.

    #48549
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Observing the reaction to Trump from the ready to riot section I’d figure for major disruption for no other reason then he wins. Trying to draw back on the money going out to the give me more crowd will definitely spark unrest.

    #48550
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    Meanwhile, my safe little bubble stuck in time paradise just got its own major puncture wound. The Mayor of the nearby small city of 16,000 (making it one of the largest cities in VT) just announced he made arrangements for about 100 Syrian refugees to come starting in October, roughly one family every two weeks for a year, and then more in subsequent years. Up until now there was only one community in VT that has hosted refugees. Now there will be two. He did not consult with anybody in town but rather blindsided everyone. I don’t live in that city but this will eventually impact the entire county.

    If organized protests come about I will join them. Meanwhile I sent this to the Mayor last evening.

    This is to express my dismay at your unilateral decision to change the face of Rutland by agreeing to bring the Syrians into Rutland with no community input. You are the Mayor, not the King. It is not your city alone, nor is Rutland County as a whole yours, and the entire County will be impacted eventually. If this is such a great idea it would have withstood seeking input from the larger community. My guess is that you knew it wouldn’t and that is why you did it all in secret.

    It is disingenuous of you to compare the Syrians to the waves of immigrants of long ago such as the Greeks and Italians. Those groups came here to become Americans and did so by virtue of their own hard work and sacrifice. The experience to date of Muslim refugee and immigrant groups resettled in the US is that they rarely assimilate but rather expect their new communities to change in ways that reflect the culture that they have fled from. Will the schools have to change their menu’s so as not to offend Islamic dietary laws? Will schools be expected to provide prayer rooms and alter schedules to accommodate the Syrian children? Will the Syrians embrace the Vermont culture of being accepting and supportive of the LGBT community? Of women’s rights? Of the generations old Jewish community in VT? Will the hospital have to change their staffing mix to accommodate Muslim same gender care demands? Who will pay for the translators the hospital may need to hire? The translators the courts may need to hire? The Rutland City Police and Rutland County Sheriffs? Are the Feds going to give them all grants for this? Many will eventually learn English, but not all, and on day one none of them will speak English. How will these things be handled until they are English proficient? You talk of them bringing skills and experience but then the newspaper articles talk about there being lots of entry level jobs. If all they are qualified for are entry level jobs then we are looking at a semi-permanent reliance upon entitlements in some form or other. That is not what I call a positive addition to the community. The Feds may be picking up the tab for a period of time but they are not guaranteeing that they will pick up the tab for however long it is these people need public support. A Muslim community in Rutland will mean a mosque is coming too. Will the neighborhood the eventual mosque will be in have to suffer those loud calls to prayer multiple times per day? Will their religious freedom trump the rights of those who presently live in a quiet neighborhood? Surely you knew that all of the kinds of questions and comments I am making would have come up in a public discussion and that is likely why you chose to ignore the people you are supposed to be representing.

    On the matter of these people being thoroughly vetted, the Feds said the female shooter in San Bernadino was thoroughly vetted too. It is all but impossible to vet anyone coming out of Syria given there is not a functioning govt in Syria with which to run background checks. That someone doesn’t show up on an international terrorist list and can talk a good game in an interview hardly constitutes a thorough vetting. Again, the public was not allowed to ask questions for which you knew there were not answers.

    Mayor Louras, your extremely poor judgment in excluding the community from this process is going to impede acceptance of the Syrians because people will not have had a forum to discuss their concerns and fears. In some ways the manner in which you did this affirms those concerns and fears. That you had some politically correct motivation does not make it the correct way to have gone about this. It was arrogance in the extreme.

    I did get a response from him: Thank you for your perspective. Louras

    #48551
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    MB,
    That is truly a shame. Your letter was spot on and his response was sooo typical. I used to write my senators and congressmen all the time. Each time I received a similar response. I hardly write them at all now. He is probably receiving a kick-back from the Feds or a promise of a future position. I’m so sick of this Shiite, I need to just sign off so I don’t attract LE with my rant.

    #48552
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    Wow. I’m so sorry to hear that, MB. Outstanding letter, and as 74 said, “sooo typical” was the response – a statement of appreciation that isn’t anything of the sort, and in fact sidesteps any dialog on the subject at all. He doesn’t want to put anything in writing that could possibly be used to hurt himself. Could he be seeing himself as another Bernie, who used official Burlington letterhead to write letters of support to the Sandinistas?

    Ironically, I just got the following today (see attachment). It would seem to fit here very well. Just substitute “Rutland” for “Europe” (or anywhere else that intentionally sabotages the political and social order of any jurisdiction of the United States). Karl would be proud. I think of his closing paragraph, in which he called for “the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions.” This certainly moves ‘nicely’ in that direction….

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
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    #48556
    Profile photo of MountainBiker
    MountainBiker
    Survivalist
    member10

    In this almost 100% white extremely low crime polite and respectful live and let live local culture, I seriously doubt most people comprehend how this is going to impact them. The forces that support it are already at work trying to pose this as a good thing. In yesterday’s paper the lead story is about a long ago Bosnian refugee to VT who now heads up the refugee program in this State. She’s white, does not wear the burka garb, came here already speaking English and from an educated middle class family. She is not representative of the Syrians at all but the subtle message is “look at how well Muslim refugees assimilate”. Bosnians are not representative of the Syrian Arab culture. I wouldn’t as alarmed if it were a group of middle class Bosnians coming to town.

    Fortunately, neither my town nor any of the other small towns in this county have any kind of public housing. There are few apartments, no public transportation, no social services etc and so it will not be easy for the Syrians to spread beyond Rutland unless they achieve a degree of economic success and independence. I hope next winter is brutally cold & snowy, comes early, and stays late. Maybe it’ll encourage them to head to warmer places when their initial Federal benefits run out. Mean spirited of me to wish the problem on someone else but I’m not the one who invited them here. You can bet the refugees won’t be living in the Mayor’s neighborhood.

    Coming back to the thread (sorry for the drift guys….I am just very upset over what is happening), this area disaster has been set in motion and I sure hope we don’t get to the violence part. These people will not have been vetted in any way that matters.

    #48557
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    It’s quite clear our government is intent on population engineering. If I had the resources I’d sponsor a gun give-away for all the ladies young and old.

    #48558
    Tolik
    Tolik
    Survivalist
    member10

    Training may help , but even intense training is no match for human nature . I worked with a Vietnam vet marine , I once asked him what its like ……..he told me this ” The first firefight I was in , I hit the dirt and was crying like a baby …………the next firefight I was in , I couldnt get enough ammo ” . This from a Marine that went through sniper and recon school . The majority of us dont have the benefit of any training at all . Truth is , we dont know how we will react until it happens . Will we make mistakes , serious mistakes ? depend on it . I have come to the realization , that you only have control over what you do , everyone else is a wild card , even those closest to you .

    #48559
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    “Will we make mistakes , serious mistakes ? depend on it . I have come to the realization , that you only have control over what you do , everyone else is a wild card , even those closest to you”

    You don’t need a crisis to learn how true this statement is, anyone with a spouse and kids automatically can verify the veracity.

    #48560
    Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint
    GeorgiaSaint
    Veteran
    member9

    Tolik, if I believed your post I’d just give up, not bother going to the range anymore because I once learned to shoot (just as one example of training), etc. But there’s a problem in what you wrote – actually two. One is that it dismisses the fact that the Marine came back – alive. He didn’t get up and run (and become “fine red mist”). OK, he was scared. So what? And OK, he didn’t have enough ammunition – but he at least used what he had, or he wouldn’t have even had the perception of “not enough.” Yep – can’t always plan for EVERYTHING. But something about his other, unmentioned reactions somehow resulted in him coming back alive anyway. I just don’t see how that was even worth using as a counter to the recommendation to never stop training. No, we cannot train for every conceivable circumstance – but we can at least stay current on what we know, and practice it over and over until it’s no longer just rote practice, but part of our real understanding. And then integration of seemingly unrelated pieces of knowledge begins to occur.

    The second problem is that even if I believe that story about the Marine disproves the doctrine of regular and frequent practice, I’ve got my own personally experienced, verifiable circumstances in which I absolutely know I’m still alive BECAUSE of training, and reacting correctly. Did I make mistakes? You bet. But I made enough right REACTIONS (not carefully thought through decisions – because there WAS no time to carefully think them through) to result in getting out of situations that were literally life threatening as a pilot (one in particular in which my student and I SHOULD have died). And years later in a driving-related situation in which death or far more serious injury was a high likelihood, four of us walked away (one with a broken foot, and one with a serious shoulder injury) from the ER that night – all injured, but all alive. It was one of those rare “slow motion” experiences that seem to occur in extreme emergency-type situations. Literally, something from years as an instructor pilot and classroom instructor came to me in that fraction of a second requiring decision making, that changed how I reacted to the situation and likely saved our lives. And I also recall an instance at the very end of pilot training during my 2-ship formation check ride when I was presented a situation by the other aircraft’s pilot (a classmate) that was seemingly impossible to overcome without failing the check ride. The check pilot was astounded that I pulled off what I pulled off, and said he did not think I could possibly recover from what I was able to pull off. Why? Training, training, training – and the sudden “voice” of my own instructor in my head that recited a critical fact that saved a passing grade, and got me the admiration of an experienced check pilot. I clearly had a massive amount of “luck” in pulling it off, too, but it simply was impossible without the previous drill, drill, drill, day in, and day out, for the previous year in pilot training.

    I stand on what I said. Your statement, “Training may help,” is a very watered down version of reality, and the rest of the sentence is nonsensical. “Training is no match for human nature?” What the heck does that even mean?!? Training doesn’t guarantee success, because yes, there will always be the possibility of circumstances where one’s “luck” will run out, and/or training just didn’t cover enough for the mind to be able to synthesize new approaches from pieces of seemingly unrelated knowledge in the midst of an emergency situation. Sorry, but I’ve seen it too many times. And it’s the main reason I do not fly today – I cannot afford to fly often enough, and with good enough instructors from time to time, to keep my skills at what I consider an acceptable “safe” level. Imagine that I was once well qualified in flying an Airbus 320 (I wasn’t), and happened to be a passenger on the ill-fated Hudson River flight flown by Chesley Sullenberger. But imagine that somehow he and his co-pilot were both incapacitated at the moment of the birdstrike. Imagine too that a flight attendant just happened to be sitting in the cockpit at that moment, came running out asking if anyone knew how to fly that aircraft, and I jumped up and into the left seat within seconds – after not flying for 20 years. Don’t think for a moment that I could have pulled off what Captain Sullenberger pulled off – even if I was still current in some other type of aircraft.

    Training AND practice are essential to success – without them, one merely has “luck” to rely on. Sure, there will be instances in which it still isn’t enough. But from your post, it would seem that we should just not be bothered with training and ongoing regular and frequent practice because we might get hit with circumstances where we simply cannot come up with the quick-enough, or right-enough solution. Yep – might happen. I just prefer to keep the odds in my favor.

    GS
    "Ye hear of wars in far countries, and you say that there will soon be great wars in far countries, but ye know not the hearts of men in your own land."

    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
    • This reply was modified 1 year, 6 months ago by Profile photo of GeorgiaSaint GeorgiaSaint.
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