June 13, 2014 at 2:22 am #16423
There are more politically correct terms for them… homeless, panhandlers, etc.
What they are, are beggars.
Our Commonwealth is relatively poor and mostly agrarian. Very little industry. When I was young – before things turned and you could still do things like this – we used to hop on our bikes and pedal down to the old steel mill on the Ohio River. Through the hole in the old fence and we would explore the ruins of the old mill. It was an exciting adventure for a 10 year old. Times have only gotten worse since that old mill closed down. Oh, some places are doing okay, but those are the places where someone else is usually paying the bills… around the Toyota plant, etc. Very little industry here, except some small scale stuff and, of course, the coal industry (now on it’s way out, thanks to our so-called “President”)…
But no matter how bad things have gotten, real, honest-to-God beggars were few. I contribute this to the largely still-intact family unit here in the rural South, along with the support network that goes with it…
What has prompted me to write this, is that I saw my first beggar around here today. I’m sure there have been others that I didn’t see, but in 5 years, I cannot recall seeing even one beggar… and seeing this guy just infuriated me.
Now, I know I’m going to catch some blowback for this, but this guy really pissed me off.
– First off, he was an illegal. Which angered me to begin with.
– Second, was that he was exploiting his wife and kid (if they even were his wife and kid). It’s one thing to stand there with a sign, begging money. It’s a completely different story when you have your wife and kid there with you. Begging plays on our sympathies and to an extent, our guilt. Why people feel guilty about seeing someone begging is beyond me, but it happens. That this border-jumper was exploiting his wife and child, playing to our alleged “guilt” – leveraging us emotionally so he could get more money – just incensed me…
– Third, he was at the exit to the grocery store. What better way to leverage someone emotionally than to stand with your wife and kid at the exit to where folks go to buy food? *******.
– Fourth, was that he was playing the Religious Card as well as the Guilt Card and Sympathy Card. Everyone who drove by, he called out “God bless you!”… .there’s no indication if he was a Christian, a Buddhist or an atheist. But he knows that this is the bible belt – you can’t swing a dead cat around here without hitting five churches – and so he just lays that on for good measure….
The nerve of this guy! He hops the border – breaking the law in the process – dragging his wife and kid along. He somehow ends up here and has the gall to stand in front of the grocery store where I buy food for my family, trying to emotionally leverage me out of what little money I have by exploiting his wife and child… how DARE he!
I’m not a heartless ogre. I won’t begrudge a man food or drink or an honest days wage. But nothing in this world is free… except for the grace of God. You want what little money I got? Then you will work for it, honestly. I refuse to aid and abet anyone breaking into this country. If you came here honestly and legally, like my forefathers did, then we got no problems.
But I’ll be damned if I’m going to give you free money… especially to a man willing to let his wife and son sit in the hot sun all day so he can emotionally leverage more money out of folks… you gotta be a special kind of messed up to do that to begin with…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1June 13, 2014 at 2:40 am #16426
No complaints from this corner of the world. I’ve got 100,000 of them on welfare 5 miles away.June 13, 2014 at 4:02 pm #16451
I agree, it is infuriating to be manipulated. I have struggled with this for some time. I am a Christian, work hard for my money and God has truly blessed me. I am told to give to the poor. We never know the story of why or how someone got on that corner. Some are obvious, amputations, deformities and other disabilities. I can bring myself to help that guy but that able bodied lazy #$&/^*# standing there holding a sign looking all forlorn and sad sends my blood pressure through the roof. My Bible says you don’t work you don’t eat. I stopped one time and told one of those guys holding a sign that said “will work for food” I had some work for him. His first question was how much does it pay. I almost came unglued right there buy I kept my composure. I told him 50 bucks for a couple hours work. He then asked what he would be doing. I told him I neede some yard work done and just general cleaning up. He told me no thanks he made more money standin there in a couple hours. I had to walk away before I lost it. I did part with some words but I won’t repeat them here. You can’t help those who won’t help themselves.June 13, 2014 at 4:18 pm #16452
In my region they are everywhere, on corners, streets, shops, ringing on your door etc. If you are big guy they are asking for money (“God bless you sir, we are hungry”), if you are woman they are more aggressive, following you, asking, touching you, sometimes threatening you, sometimes stealing for you.
Women beggars often carrying babies (drugged or filled with vodka, so they don t cry), asking for money.
Like Malgus said, I am not ogre, but when I offer them bread or meal, they do not want it, they want money.
It is mostly organized business here, with leaders and plans.June 13, 2014 at 6:33 pm #16469
Dangerous creatures, useful disguise for spying on neighbourhoods. Stay away, unless there is a legal way and possibility to eliminate them effectively.June 13, 2014 at 6:47 pm #16470
I hear you about those con artists. “Will work for food”? Yeah, right. Friend of mine needed some work done, and being the good soul he is, went downtown (this was in another state) where the bums hung out with their signs… Went up to the first guy and asked “You want a job?” The guy asked “Doing what?” My friend said “Well, you had your chance.” and moved on to the next guy. If you are holding a sign that says “Will work for food”, does it really matter what you’ll be doing? A job – any job – is better than no job. The guy he skipped realized he screwed up and begged my buddy to reconsider. Not a chance, friend. You had your chance, and you blew it.
Second thing would be one of those news shows I saw a couple years ago. They filmed this beggar standing between lanes at an intersection, holding a sign that said he was destitute, homeless, whatever… had his little cup for folks to put money in. He was dressed all raggedy. When he was finished, they followed him. He walked several blocks away, out of sight, and went to a nice car. Not a luxury car or anything fancy, but not a shitbox either. Went to the trunk and changed clothes. Then he drove to a nice house in the suburbs. They knocked on his door and confronted him about him being a phony and a con artist. He was at least honest in his answer – “I can make more money begging than I can at a regular job”. Plus, he doesn’t have to declare the money to the taxman…
I don’t give anyone free money.
They drug the children so they’re more docile and quiet? That’s disturbing on so many levels. No guarantees that the child belongs to the woman – might be his mother, might not. But drugging an infant so you can use them as a prop to leverage people more efficiently? That’s just evil. I had no idea things were still that bad in your neck of the woods.. no wonder you are prepping. I mean, in a city it’s one thing to have beggars. In the middle of nowhere, like here, to have beggars? Even with all the Free **** our government gives away to the illegals, this guy has to beg?
Beggars were common elsewhere in the world… in Central America, begging was almost a genuine occupation. They’d see you coming – an American (or at least a “gringo”) – and they saw you as a walking cash machine. It was constant – just nonstop. Most times I could ignore them, but I confess it grinds on you to see it all the time…
I ran into some beggars in Germany once – on Köningstrasse in Stuttgart. They sat leaning up against a building with their little cups in front of them… in all honesty, I did not notice them until I was on top of them. I mean, who goes around looking for people sitting around their feet when you’re walking down a sidewalk filled with people? I accidentally kicked this one beggar’s cup with the toe of my boot, sending his money flying. Immediately, I said “Oh my God! I am so sorry!” and started to help pick up his money, putting it back into the cup. I’m actually a pretty nice guy and fairly easy going…
But my mistake, I apologized in English. He started yelling at me in German – it wasn’t “German” German… he was from somewhere else – calling me all sorts of names, yelling that I was stupid, an idiot, etc.
His mistake. I speak German. Okay, I get that he was pissed off that I kicked his cup, but I was trying to help make things right and even considered giving him money out of my pocket for the screw up… but, him calling me names and telling me I was an idiot just infuriated me. (A bit of background – I’m not a small guy. Well over 6 feet, spent my whole life as a soldier, lifting weights, working out, packing on muscle. My son calls me “Stoic The Vast” after Hiccup’s father in “How to Train Your Dragon”. My wife has referred to me as a bear for most of our marriage.. also “Bigfoot” “Wookie” and “Sasquatch” have been used.. )
This dirtbag calling me an idiot because he was stupid enough to leave his cup in the middle of the sidewalk? Even while I was trying to help him? Nope. Not gonna have that, no way.
To cultivate our “command voice”, our trainers had us yell at trees. I drew myself up and just cut loose on this beggar at maximum volume – in German. I won’t repeat what I said here. It was pretty bad. Something about his inbred mother having relations with farm animals. He didn’t expect someone to go off on him. (Neither did my wife.. she had no idea I knew words like that. ) Germans are pretty reserved and will just shoot you a dirty look instead of yelling at you. When I was done, I looked around and all the locals had backed up… way up… making a big circle around us. Guess they were trying to get clear of that wrath, and I wasn’t even yelling at them! The beggar just sat there, looking up at me with his mouth hanging open… which would have been damn funny if I wasn’t so damn mad…
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.June 13, 2014 at 7:53 pm #16476
Stoick the Vast
I think I like this name for you malgus. I never figured you as a little man.June 13, 2014 at 8:27 pm #16485
hey drug the children so they’re more docile and quiet? That’s disturbing on so many levels. No guarantees that the child belongs to the woman – might be his mother, might not. But drugging an infant so you can use them as a prop to leverage people more efficiently? That’s just evil.
Yes, it happens often, most of them do not have any IDs, so when police get them they may be hold for a while and then just go to another region, problem gets more complicated because here there is no good social service for kids like that, I mean it is here but like everything else here it is not working good.
Beggars here are whole “subculture”, main problem is that lot of them just simple criminals (when they see opportunity)June 13, 2014 at 9:27 pm #16496
We’ve got people begging on almost every street corner. Some you will find at the same place everyday. They’ve learned not to approach my vehicle. I’ve got ways to prevent them from looking into my vehicle. You stop in advance and drive forward if they get to close. They get aggressive often and will try to scratch your car with a stone – that is when I use pepper spray. I report them and have them removed. Some beggars stand on their knees in the middle of the road. – drivers can barely see them. You really need to drive careful not to hit them. Babies get used often. They get told to leave if the police is doing their work in the area. The babies are most of the time dehydrated if tested.
I do tip car guards if they treat me with respect and keep their distance. I talk to some often to get information about the area. Most car guards in SA do not earn a salary. They collect tips and to make it even worse ! need to give about R20 each day to some boss who ‘organised’ the job. In Johannesburg area most car guards are Congolese and speak French.
I do feel sorry for old people. Sometimes you can see how they loose weight. And then I wish that governments will stop being so stupid – if you are not clever enough to make good decisions for your nation – at least allow the clever people to give some advice. If only people would stop breaking things down and start building… There will be less people begging. And for the lazy people begging – its the stupid people giving them money fault that they are still there begging.June 14, 2014 at 12:05 am #16501
If you give a mouse a cookie…
Not a big fan of “social services”. Once upon a time, the poor were taken care of via the church and private donations/organizations, like the Red Cross, etc. Nowadays, governments extort money out of people via “taxes” and then give other people the “free money”. Over here, giving people “free money” only encourages them to not work, not produce and – because some halfwit made a rule that says the more kids you have, the more “free money” you get – we have professional welfare queens who just keep on having kids because it means more money from the State…
In a normally functioning society that has a robust economy and folks actually produce wealth – and the number of “poor” people is relatively small – then social services works. But over here, the parasites now outnumber the producers… which means you can never pay for them all at our current tax rate. So, they can squeeze the producers for even more, or they can “borrow” currency from The Fed. But this is just robbing Peter to pay Paul. It’s just a trick, and it cannot go on forever. Eventually, it will crash. And all that that means…
You said “And then I wish that governments will stop being so stupid – if you are not clever enough to make good decisions for your nation – at least allow the clever people to give some advice. If only people would stop breaking things down and start building… There will be less people begging. And for the lazy people begging – its the stupid people giving them money fault that they are still there begging.”
The current trend is to play one group of people off of another. The ANC and their cronies got into office by playing the Race Card. They stay in office by playing the blacks off the whites. They promise one group of people “free stuff and free money” because they have convinced them that somehow they are “owed” this by the other group of people… and people fall for this nonsense, continuing to vote in the same evil bastards over and over… those in power only want to stay in power and increase their power, nothing more. There is very little altruism in politics.. once upon a time, folks did what was best for their country. Now they do what’s best for themselves…
As far as building things instead of breaking things… well, I’m not going to venture an opinion on that. Just say that some people are meant to build and create, while others only leave destruction in their wake…
When my wife and I were first married, I drove a Jeep – a CJ7. She had an Opel Corsa. Ended up selling the Jeep. You know how it is when you’re first married… never enough money. I called her car “The McDonald’s Toy”. It was dinky. First time I drove it, I felt like a McDonald’s toy. Only way I was really comfortable driving it was with the sunroof open – when it was closed, I kept banging my head on the glass.
This is an Opel Corsa… except for the color, this was our car.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1
Attachments:You must be logged in to view attached files.June 14, 2014 at 12:20 am #16504
We have alot of that over here aswell. I have no idea how “beggars” behave outside of Scandinavia, and I’m certain there are criminals and bad guys among “them”, like in any group of people regardless of social status. But the absolute vast majority over here are definately not part of organized crime syndicates. Like I said, I don’t know how it is in other countries so I won’t say you guys have the wrong idea, but this is how it is over here and how I see it.
I’ve always had a thing for exploring the underground and the unknown parts of where I live and I’ve often stumbled across camps with homeless people and “beggars”. Some of them deserted, most of them still in use. They’re often found on deserted lots and in small groves on the outskirts of the industrial areas. They live in patched up tents, wheel-less caravans, shelters constructed from plywood and in abandoned buildings. They build bushcraft-ish fireplaces and other things and they cook in the open outside their caravans and eat their meals together. It’s true that most of them prefer money before food, but I don’t find this very strange at all, I’ll explain why later. It’s also true that they’re often “organized” – not by mobsters in luxury cars but they carpool, use cellphones and they decide what corner each of them is going to sit at and so on.
Before all of this makes sense there’s some things you need to realize. Most of these guys are “illegals”, in this particular case they’re often unemployed and deprived persons of Romanian origin. They’re here to make money, alot of them are not homeless back in their country and many of them have families, they don’t bring their kids here, they’re often with friends or relatives at home. Some of the money is obviously spent on food to survive during their stay here but they keep this to a minimum since the goal is to send or bring back money for bills and food at home. They also need some of it for gas or bus tickets for the return trip.
During the day they’re divided and try to get money at various locations spread across the city, when the night comes they gather and if it’s a long way to their camp they usually have a guy with a minivan come pick them up. The money is split equally since there’s a strong sense of collectiveness within their culture, one of the “piles” is used to buy ingredients for food that they cook and eat together before they go to sleep. This is one of the reasons they don’t want food, they have a plan. They calculated it all and choose to spend as little as possible on cheap ingredients such as onions, beans, rice, potatos, vegetables and so on to avoid spending too much over here. Secondly, there are people out there that actually try to hurt them. We’ve had incidents where mobs have gathered to attack both single individuals and whole camps and there are constant rumors of poisoned food and drinks.
As I’ve written in my Lessons Learned-thread I’ve always been living on the edge of society. During the years I’ve come into contact with more then a few homeless people in many citys. These are people of all ages, backgrounds and origins, some of them have been locals and some of them “illegals”. To me it doesn’t matter at all, to me they’ll always be people and I really believe that the only thing that differs me from them is the fact that I rent a room with four walls and a roof. I don’t always give money, I’m not a naive person and I don’t try to save the world. But according to me, these people are victims of capitalism and politics and to me the politicans are the real parasites. As I stated before, I’m not saying you guys have the wrong idea and I’m not writing all of this to change anyones way of thinking. I just thought I’d contribute since my view differed from the majority.
"Certainly We have created man to struggle" - Qur'an 90:4June 14, 2014 at 1:40 am #16509
You’re an educated guy, at least going by your command of the English language. You’re not stupid. Quite the opposite.
We agree that politicians are the real enemy. I would argue that the personality type that is drawn to politics – to power – is the sociopath. Think about it. A politician does not give a damn about you or your problems. Not really. They will lie smoothly and easily, right to your face, and very convincingly. I’m quite certain that most politicians can pass a lie detector test with flying colors, no matter if they tell the truth or not. Once they lie to you to obtain your vote, and they gain power and position, they do what they want, which was their goal all along. Usually, “doing what they want” is lining their own pockets at the expense of others.
However, I disagree that the “Romani” (as we know them) are in any way “victims” of capitalism. I would even argue that it was capitalism itself – free market competition unrestrained by government meddling – that created the wealth that the Romani exploit. All good things do not flow from Government, and the beating heart of any robust economy is the free market and small business. I would further argue that if the Romani put half the effort into gaining experience learning a trade and working – creating real wealth – than they do in organized begging, they would be vastly better off than they are now… I am surprised that you, who I am assuming expressed a dislike for capitalism, would dislike the very thing that empowers the citizenry and removes the power from the politicians.
I do not believe in “egalitarianism”… that is, forced equality of results. Because it usually comes at the point of a bayonet. Since Government is literally “force”, and is populated by the sociopathic politicians both you and I loathe, then having those sociopaths “force” equality on people is a very good working definition of tyranny.
As fashionable as it is to think so, people are not “equal” in the most literal sense. Inequality is the default setting of the human condition. Some will always be faster, smarter, stronger, more talented, more driven, willing to sacrifice more than others, and it is the height of lunacy to think that evolution somehow stopped at the neck. I think people are born with potential – whatever that might be, and they should be free to explore that potential as far as they can. But they are hardly “equal”. Each individual can only go so far given the talents they are gifted with. Some go very far. Some, hardly at all.
In the words of my old daddy – “Boy? The world needs ditch-diggers, too.” Where the problem comes in is when certain people look at others and covet what the others have. Politicians know that jealousy and envy are powerful emotions and some have made their entire career exploiting these emotions.
Someone plays to their strengths, works hard, succeeds and becomes moderately wealthy. Other people look at that wealth and become jealous and envious without seeing the lifetime of hard work behind it. Then some politician comes along and convinces them that they are “entitled” to what that successful person has, and if he can get enough people to gang up on the successful guy, they will “vote” to take his wealth. Getting 99% of my neighbors to “vote” to steal my stuff is still stealing… and I’m still trying to figure out the moral and ethical justifications someone would have to be able lay claim on anything that is mine.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1June 14, 2014 at 11:29 am #16537
I can’t say you’re wrong. You’re realistic, down to earth and I definately can’t argue with evolution, obviously the strong will survive in the long run. Maybe I look at it differently because I feel that I can relate to them, or at least their vulnerable situation but an even bigger reason is probably the fact that I don’t think the politicans have any real power in the first place. I think the democratic system, at least today, is just part of a smoke and mirrors operation to hide the fact that none of us can ever influence the power through the system (voting, proposals, abiding the law and so on). If people think the politicans are on top of the hierchy, and that they can use the given rules to control the politicans through voting, they will not try to rise up, that’s a pretty well known master suppression technique. According to me the politicans and media are just puppets and tools of corporations and banks – the actual source of power in the world today.
I fully agree with you when you say we’re not born “equal”, and that every person must take responsibility for his/her own life by exploring their potential. But according to me, capitalism has gone to far and is now actually preventing alot of people from fully exploring their potential. But we don’t have to sink deeper into any further political discussion here as it might be a little off topic.
I realize these ideas and opinions might make me sound like a hippie. But I’m not living in a fantasy world and I have no delusional thoughts of changing the world or saving less fortunte people or everyone being able to live in peace together, it doesn’t work like that and I’m not chasing after utopia here. I just look at it from a different perspective and I really don’t care if it’s naive or unconstructive. From a survivalist point of view on the other hand, that’s a whole different story – I’d obviously change my priorities, actions and behavior in a SHTF-scenario but since this topic was posted in General I described my view on this during the current circumstances.
Regarding my way with words, I’m actually not that educated, I didn’t finish school (like in senior highschool) and I never went to college. I just enjoy communication and find words and languages very interesting. Like most people in this part of the world I’ve picked up alot from movies and games – so I guess I mostly know curse words and military lingo
"Certainly We have created man to struggle" - Qur'an 90:4June 14, 2014 at 1:24 pm #16539
I’m not a big fan of banks, either… a bit of history. (Since this is my thread/post, I don’t care if we talk about beggars, politics, banks, economics, political views… since it all goes to the same thing – creating an underclass of folks who beg for a living).
Back in the late, great 19th century, a previous President of ours – Andy Jackson – absolutely hated the bank. Not banks in general, but the central bank. So, he went after them. Eventually, the central bank was no more. When asked on his death bed what his greatest accomplishment was, President Jackson said “I killed the bank”. They were his last words.
Destroying the central bank spawned the greatest free market economic boom in the history of Mankind. It was glorious. We had real money back then. “Money” and “currency” are not the same thing. Money has intrinsic worth. An ounce of gold mined in ancient Egypt 3000 years ago has the same worth as an ounce of gold mined the day before yesterday. Silver the same. “Currency” – as in “fiat currency” – is just paper. “Fiat” means “force”, and governments can now declare that anything is “currency”… even toilet paper, if they so choose (our currency has actually less value than toilet paper. Dollars make lousy toilet paper).
What all this goes to is how the central banks siphon wealth away from people. There’s nothing wrong with capitalism. True capitalism. But we don’t have that now. What we have now is crony capitalism, and most folks either don’t know the difference or don’t care.
See, we used to have real money – coins made of silver and gold. And paper dollars redeemable in silver and gold. Then, along came The Fed in 1913. The Fed was signed into being (along with our most hated tax agency, the IRS) very near Christmas Eve in 1913 – when everyone who was opposed to the idea was conveniently out of town for the holidays. This was done by the “Progressive” Woodrow Wilson. We didn’t have a central bank since 1789, but all of a sudden, we “needed” one… yeah, right. Our Income Tax was supposed to be temporary – to pay for the Spanish American War – but the politicians knew a cash cow when they saw one. So, they changed the Constitution to give themselves permission to tax us directly. (This is an oversimplification, but you’d get bored if I got too detailed). How they did this was by playing people off each other – the “have not’s” versus the “haves”…
Then, the second blow was struck by another “progressive” President, FDR. (FDR was Wilson’s “Golden Boy” and Secretary of the Navy). FDR decided that nobody was allowed to own gold bullion. They bought up all the gold they could find at $20 an ounce. Then when they had the gold, they “declared” that the gold was now worth almost $50 an ounce! Gave themselves a nice raise, didn’t they? This was supposedly because of the Great Depression. How taking gold away from people is supposed to help them is completely beyond me.
The third, and worst, blow fell in 1971. President Nixon separated the dollar from gold. Having your currency tied to gold meant you could only spend what you had, and no more. Separate your currency from gold, and now you could just print currency at will, as much as you wanted. This was the start of “crony capitalism”. The currency was just “invented” by our central bank – The Fed – and it flowed to Wall Street, who turned around and used massive amounts of cash to influence politicians into making decisions that benefited Wall Street the most… and the union of the central bank/corporations/politicians was complete.
Here. If you have some time, you need to see this. It’s obviously an oversimplification, but it’s not wrong.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1June 14, 2014 at 1:42 pm #16541
Here’s another good one. How Money Became Worthless. Well worth your time. This is just the trailer, but it links to the documentary.
The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1
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