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  • #41400
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    “Simply messing…about in boats — or with boats… In or out of ‘em it doesn’t matter. Nothing seems to matter, that’s the charm of it. Whether you get away, or whether you don’t; whether you arrive at your destination or whether you reach somewhere else, or whether you never get anywhere at all” – Kenneth Grahame

    This is the thread for boats. Information and questions about different types of boats and the scenarios that they might be used. For this discussion small boats will be defined as those boats that can be pulled from the water by hand.

    #41411
    Profile photo of sledjockey
    sledjockey
    Bushcrafter
    member8

    I am a big fan of inflatable type boats, particularly Zodiacs. The military uses them a lot for stealth activities because an engine silencer can be installed to make them almost unheard when running full out above the noise of the surf. When idling the engine is barely heard at all. The same type technology is used on the stealth type mufflers used on hunting quads. My son broke the exhaust on my quad, but the Hush Power I now have to reweld/rebuild made my quad’s engine run almost silently. It was barely audible when going at slow speeds and you heard the crunch of the tires at high speeds long before you heard the engine.

    When being stealthy in a boat your profile is what will give you away long before anything else… According to what we were taught in the Navy. There are black or dark blobs all over waterways to include rivers and lakes. Shadows can cause similar looking blobs naturally as long as you don’t sit upright. Why do you think that the Navy has silhouette pictures of ships for identification and not colorings? There are always all sorts of pictures of their radio towers, radar dishes, etc…..

    Other things about inflatables: They are easily deflated and reinflated for purposes of hiding them while on shore. Hard hulled boats are a bit more difficult to hide onshore.

    http://ageofdecadence.com

    #41413
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    I want to address the issue of larger size boats first to give people a practical understanding of the problems of using any boat that can’t be hidden. Whether the boat is a 16′ runabout, a 50′ sport fisherman or a 30′ sailboat they all give your position away in daylight and often at night. There is no way to hide and there is no where to go and hide. Even the fastest boat can be cut off by a slow boat in front of it, that boat is caught in the open and bullets are darn fast.

    This leaves one option for large craft, massive superior stand off capabilities. If a boat can’t be outfitted with that type of firepower then don’t use it after shtf. There could be some exceptions, for example of an exemption would be, using a large boat at night to cross a body of water and abandon the boat off shore using the dinghy to sneak on shore. If a boat does have standoff ability it still can’t come ashore without losing the tactical advantage.

    A large boat must be able to successfully engage multiple fast moving targets (3 or 4) in a 360 degree perimeter 24/7 before attackers close in to small arms range (500yrds) Accuracy must allow for hits on a 1 ft square (the size of a small outboard motor) moving at 40 mph. Okay I don’t have even one mg and certainly not two or three 50bmgs and probably not many preppers do. So scrap the idea of sailing that 50′ sailboat into the sunset.

    #41415
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Sled,
    The positives of inflatables you outlined are good but that type of craft have negatives as well. Anyone contemplating using one in a shtf situation should bear in mind the limitations as well.

    First they are inflated craft, so they deflate as well. Usually when you don’t want it to happen. Being in a soft inflatable is comparable to pushing a rope. If the motor can’t be used for mechanical propulsion they must be rowed or paddled. Inflatable boats are normally flat bottomed and short making them very difficult to stay on course. Even a 100 or 200 yard passage is pain in the ass because they spin like a paper plate.

    This is my opinion about engine noise. On the water you can hear a mouse fart. Except for open ocean along the coast, most bodies of water don’t have surf noise. The small waves on inland bays, the great lakes, rivers and lakes don’t amount to much. I lived on the Chesapeake Bay where it was 8 miles wide. At night boat motor noise could be heard for miles and miles. I always knew a boat was moving long before I could see it. Any noise that is mechanical and unnatural will attract attention.

    #41421
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    This link has a blog and then comments about using a boat for a BOL, all the material is worth reading.

    http://www.shtfblog.com/using-a-boat-as-a-bug-out-location/

    #41423
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    For the longest time, I wanted to build my own little boat.

    Traditional, old school boat. Lapstrake hull, copper rivets and roves, oakum waterproofing, lots of spar varnish and polished brass. Always wanted to build a canoe yawl. As far as canoe yawls went, I wanted a bigger one. 20 feet, with a sleeper cabin, schooner rigged. A motor, if any, would only serve in emergencies. Since she would have a centerboard and only a ballast keel, it could be retracted and the vessel beached if necessary.

    For those of you unfamiliar with this type of boat, it’s basically the shape of a canoe – sharp at both ends, partially or wholly decked, shallow draft, long and fairly narrow so relatively few people can propel it with oars, if needs be. Some of the larger ones were 20 feet long and over, with a ton of fixed lead as ballast and a formal keel. Others were so small you could almost shoplift them. They’re lighter and faster than their formal sailboat counterparts and one person can handle a canoe yawl comfortably…

    They were all the rage in the US back about a hundred years ago, there being even formal clubs and races, a regatta being held wherever wind and water would allow – with some serious prize money and trophies up for grabs.

    Personally, of all the smallish boats, I think it’s the most handsome, the most useful and the most versatile…

    Couple images… the first is a bigger canoe yawl. Fully decked with a cabin – likely a sleeper cabin. Schooner rigged. (Edit: my inexperience is showing… it’s ketch rigged) The second is a tiny canoe yawl. I think the guy shoplifted it.

    [attachment file=”canoe yawl big.jpg”]

    [attachment file=”canoe yawl small.jpg”]

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

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    #41442
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus, I hope you have been looking at L. Francis Herreshoff’s Rozinante design. Probably the sweetest litle canoe yawl ever conceived. They’re to small for long term living and cruising for my tastes though. As a weekender and daysailer a Rozinante would be hard to beat. They are so pretty in the water.

    Not trying to cause any trouble here but a yawl can’t be a schooner rig.

    #41444
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Malgus, I hope you have been looking at L. Francis Herreshoff’s Rozinante design. Probably the sweetest litle canoe yawl ever conceived. They’re to small for long term living and cruising for my tastes though. As a weekender and daysailer a Rozinante would be hard to beat. They are so pretty in the water.

    Not trying to cause any trouble here but a yawl can’t be a schooner rig.

    Yeah, it would require two masts. The rear taller than the front.

    I’m not an expert by any stretch – I just know what I like and I’m pretty good at woodworking. Good enough to build one (if I can ever get the knack of lofting down) – but why can’t a yawl be constructed with two masts and schooner rigged, and still be considered a yawl?

    I thought the yawl designation was more based on the hull shape – long, narrow, sharp fore and aft, centerboard or fixed keel, etc – and not based on how she’s rigged? The viking longships were technically canoe yawls, just really, really big ones.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #41445
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    74,

    Okay, I went and pulled one of the books out of my tiny “library”… W.P. Stephens “Canoe and Boat Building”.

    In the back, they have various sail plans for canoes and canoe yawls…

    Some have one mast and are sloop rigged with mainsail and jib. Some have two masts and are either ketch rigged, or dhow rigged. One even has 3 masts and is junk rigged… but they all follow the basic same hull design…

    So, I guess my question would be “Why couldn’t a canoe yawl be built with two masts – albeit smallish ones – and schooner rigged? Like a pilot schooner? A foresail, mainsail and a staysal or jib.. don’t have to have all the canvas flying that the big boys do…

    (Edit: Not trying to pick a fight. I’m the rankest of rank amateurs when it comes to sailing. You know stuff that I don’t, and I’m considering you a subject expert on things. Hence the questions. I’m just like “Hey, I like the way that looks.” and wondering why I cannot make it so… if it’s just a simple matter of nomenclature and I’m wrong, please, please, please tell me… because I really don’t want to come off looking like an idiot… )

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #41447
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Malgus,
    You’re mixing two separate design elements. Hull design and rig design.
    Schooner, sloop, ketch, yawl and lateen discribe mast and sail configurations. Hull design is separate from the rig. What you are discribing is a double ended schooner. The hull could be a narrow canoe or wider bigger boat like a Tancook Whaler.

    Rigs and sail plans are matched to hull designs for various reasons. Schooners were used to allow many smaller sized sails and standing rigging that are more easily controlled than what the same boat would have using a sloop rig. Ketch and yawl rigs are easy to handle an the mizzen (the shorter mast aft) keep the boat from falling off the wind. They point up well.

    #41448
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    74,

    Thanks for the clarification. That Whaler sure is a pretty thing – I looked up what one was since the term was new to me… damn fine looking boat – but it looks to be way way too big for my wants and needs. But I am impressed that they were originally blue water boats meant to be used in some pretty rough weather. They apparently could take a beating and still keep on keeping on… surprised that they reached up to 50′ in length…

    Did a bit of looking using Peter Van Dine’s name and “Tankook Whaler”

    Found this… one thing I noticed is that it’s raked much sharper fore and aft than the yawl is, but still a fine looking little boat.

    Great… just great… thanks a lot 74… now you’ve got me torn. I like the sail plan of the Whaler and the fact that they’re blue water boats and tough, but I also like the hull of the yawl more than I like those of the whaler…

    Maybe I should just blend both together into some frankenstein boat and call it good….

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

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    #41453
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews
    #41458
    Profile photo of sledjockey
    sledjockey
    Bushcrafter
    member8

    I can’t believe that this discussion when to sail boats…. Too kewl.

    The wife and I have been considering getting a sail boat as our way to get the heck out of town on weekends and dodge her mother. Thank you for the resources.

    So I have been going on cruiser forums, getting several sailing and cruiser magazines, and I really feel more ignorant now than I did before. Luckily I went through Navy boot camp (although spent all my time with Marines) so I know the jargon enough to follow what is being said to some degree. However, much of the design and rigging of sail boats really is leaving me completely lost. For the most part they all look like floating objects with canvas hanging from a stick to me. Other than the “For Dummies” book (which kind of lost me after a few chapters), where is a good place to start learning?

    http://ageofdecadence.com

    #41460
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Sled,
    After shtf a big sailboat would be a tremendous BOL if (big if) there were no pirates and looters. A large sailboat is like an ultimate RV that can give you world wide mobility.

    The obvious place to start is with a lesson. I would go to the body of water I intend to use in the future and look for an instructor or school. Start on a boat about 22′, the handling and comfort will be closer to a useable overnighter. The body of water you will be on will dictate what type of boat can be used to a large dgree. Sheltered water vs open water, shallow bays & lakes or deep water.

    Most smaller sailboats are sloop riged. Sloops are the easiest to master since they only have two sails. You really don’t need to worry about rigs because a sloop Is probably all that would be available until you charter a big boat.
    Start some place where there are no strong currents and big tides to contend with.

    #41462
    Profile photo of sledjockey
    sledjockey
    Bushcrafter
    member8

    I had considered taking a class, but these guys all push the Bermuda rigs and cruising type boats around here. That kind of defeats the purpose of me taking the class to get familiar enough with various types of sail boats if they focus on solo sailing cruisers.

    http://ageofdecadence.com

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