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  • #12385
    Profile photo of tweva
    tweva
    Survivalist
    rreallife

    Over at Jim Rawles Survival Blog I thought these made interesting reading. What do you think?

    1) Ideas Concerning Post Collapse World
    2) Response

    Thoughts/opinions?

    #12386
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    On number 1. It sounds great for the farmer, but I do not think so! First it makes it look like the city people will just die or kill each other off, not true, it also makes it look like the city people do not have a brain and will only use there feet to walk to the farm land. What happen to the millions and millions of bicycles that are all over the cities. Every house has a bicycle in the cities. Also the cities are full of x military men and women that will find a way to take over small farms.

    Also the gangs from the cities are not going to walk to the farmland, they will find a way to get there. The farmers will have a war on there hands.

    I know for a fact that here in Florida the cities 9 out of 10 homes own at less one gun so yes the cities will be a war but they will go to the farmland.

    On number 2, Yes the Constitution does need an update to clarify 2nd Amendment, and property ownership and other parts, but we have to be very careful.

    #12390
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    I agree with freedom, this narrative is to simple in it’s analysis.  I’m not sure how it would pan out. There will be fuel until the tank farms and refineries are burnt to the ground.

     

    #12399
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    I can say I don’t care for his #2 at all. We should return to the original Intent of the Constitution. Change the way the Senate is selected back to the original process, using the House of each State to pick each State’s Senators.

    Throw out all the Established Laws based on court decisions and start fresh. Make make Supreme Court decisions review-able by the senate and house. Make Supreme Court Justices Impeachable.

    Remove the power of Executive Orders, Remove the war powers act. Remove all Agencies and Departments not enumerated in the Constitution. Return these powers to the states.

    Just for starters.

    #12421
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Interesting yes.
    Crystal ball material? Doubtful.

    If you’ve been on a farm recently, most outside the “Amish/Mennonite” communities are beyond going back to the old ways. There are no old timers left in reality.
    Without petroleum products, farms don’t operate today, period.

    The old horse drawn equipment is rusted solid and used for lawn ornaments.
    No power, no juice to run the wells. There are almost no working windmills out there, and solar is problematic and expensive for this use.

    People from the cities want to take over the farms and run them. This should be required viewing.
    You want a picture of how this will work, have a look at Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and South Africa where the farms have been redistributed to those who can’t/haven’t/won’t farm.
    The farmland that was once the breadbasket of Africa is now sitting idle, ruined or in a few cases growing unsustainable crops.
    People living on once productive farmland are starving to death, because they are too stupid, lazy or just too ignorant to produce the most modest amount of food.

    Look closely, this is what you’ll see once the graineries are empty and city folk think they are going to take over.
    Especially without resources.

    #12422
    Profile photo of freedom
    freedom
    Survivalist
    rnews

    1974, That is right, the Executive Orders is out of hand, also we do hav to many Agencies and Departments. The Government is not a job creator!

    #12423
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    <div class=”d4p-bbp-quote-title”>freedom wrote:</div>1974, That is right, the Executive Orders is out of hand, also we do hav to many Agencies and Departments. The Government is not a job creator!

    Yes it is, look at how many bureaucrats are happily employed!

    #12438
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Without petroleum products, farms don’t operate today, period.

    On balance, I agree with you, especially when you’re talking about Big Agra.

    The old horse drawn equipment is rusted solid and used for lawn ornaments.

    The old equipment, yes. But there are still those who make new horse-drawn implements today. For what they are, the price is reasonable.

    http://www.farmingwithhorses.com/

    http://pioneerfarmequipment.com/

    No power, no juice to run the wells. There are almost no working windmills out there, and solar is problematic and expensive for this use.

    Actually, there are. There are companies who still make traditional steel windmills that connect to either a wellhead or a mechanical aerator to render a pond oxygenated, agitate the water which prevents pond scum and allows for a greater population of fish… we’ll probably be buying at least one windmill this year for that very purpose. If I can get a well drilled, then we will be installing another windmill.

    People from the cities want to take over the farms and run them. This should be required viewing.

    Good luck to anyone who tries to “take over” my farm. I’ve already decided to use the Nuclear Option if it comes to that. Of course, what all that means is totally classified. It’s enough to know that the thieves will be very, very disappointed.


    People living on once productive farmland are starving to death, because they are too stupid, lazy or just too ignorant to produce the most modest amount of food.

    My vote is for “stupid” with “lazy” coming in a close second.

    True story – aid workers would go to Africa with a cargo plane full of stuff – seed corn, livestock, farming implements, etc. They showed the locals in some village how to till the land, sow and grow corn, taught them animal husbandry, how to milk a cow, even dug them a nice well so they would have clean, fresh water…

    Came back one year later and they had eaten all the seed corn and animals, sold the tools and bought God-knows-what and were using the well as a latrine. Cholera and dysentery were endemic, the locals bordering on starvation…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #12439
    Whirlibird
    Whirlibird
    Survivalist
    member10

    Without petroleum products, farms don’t operate today, period.

    On balance, I agree with you, especially when you’re talking about Big Agra.

    Even small farms today, almost none have the draft animals required to till the land, some have riding horses but those are hardly good plow animals.

    The old horse drawn equipment is rusted solid and used for lawn ornaments.

    The old equipment, yes. But there are still those who make new horse-drawn implements today. For what they are, the price is reasonable.

    http://www.farmingwithhorses.com/

    http://pioneerfarmequipment.com/


    Very true, however if SHTF today, few could get those implements. Unless they buy now, and what farmer right now is going to put out that kind of cash for maybe?

    No power, no juice to run the wells. There are almost no working windmills out there, and solar is problematic and expensive for this use.

    Actually, there are. There are companies who still make traditional steel windmills that connect to either a wellhead or a mechanical aerator to render a pond oxygenated, agitate the water which prevents pond scum and allows for a greater population of fish… we’ll probably be buying at least one windmill this year for that very purpose. If I can get a well drilled, then we will be installing another windmill.

    Same with the implements, having just left farming country for the mountains, I knew of only one ‘farm’ still running windmills, mostly tradition but also because the owner didn’t want to run that much power line (miles).

    People from the cities want to take over the farms and run them. This should be required viewing.

    Good luck to anyone who tries to “take over” my farm. I’ve already decided to use the Nuclear Option if it comes to that. Of course, what all that means is totally classified. It’s enough to know that the thieves will be very, very disappointed.


    People living on once productive farmland are starving to death, because they are too stupid, lazy or just too ignorant to produce the most modest amount of food.

    My vote is for “stupid” with “lazy” coming in a close second.

    True story – aid workers would go to Africa with a cargo plane full of stuff – seed corn, livestock, farming implements, etc. They showed the locals in some village how to till the land, sow and grow corn, taught them animal husbandry, how to milk a cow, even dug them a nice well so they would have clean, fresh water…

    Came back one year later and they had eaten all the seed corn and animals, sold the tools and bought God-knows-what and were using the well as a latrine. Cholera and dysentery were endemic, the locals bordering on starvation…

     

    This mindset is what you see in most of the city folk, they don’t own anything, they don’t know how to raise anything, and they will try to take in this instance. Their success is going to depend on much, not just resistance.

    I look at much of what is happening and has happened in places like Argentina, South Africa, Rhodesia and yes even ‘Yugoslavia’ as examples. And while there is a great deal of cultural differences, some of the similarities are striking.

    Caution is the watchword, people must be aware of what might happen and plan accordingly.
    Firearms are an integral part of my plan, although not the only part, they might not be a part of others.

    #12458
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Whirl,

    For the most part, I agree with you. I know one guy who, for some reason, buys old horse drawn equipment and then sets them behind his barn for….? I have no idea what he’s doing with them. They just sit there, exposed to the elements, rusting away. If you’re going to invest in horse-drawn equipment, why not just buy new, working equipment and store it? But hey, it ain’t my money…

    Most horses around here, being Kentucky, are quarter horses. But there are a few around who breed the bigger draft horses. As far as implements are concerned, there are blacksmiths around here of some talent. If you have one rusty old implement to work from, it can be duplicated. It might not be as refined as the older stuff was, but it doesn’t have to be pretty to work.

    Your point about petroleum products is very valid. Most of the larger spreads around here have their own supplies of diesel of varying amounts. Biggest I’ve seen so far is about a thousand gallons of diesel. They could get by for awhile, depending on how frugal they are with their diesel. My little Redbelly runs on gasoline, but I have been exploring options to convert it to run on 100% ethanol. Most vegetable matter can be converted to ethanol, and we really only use the tractor for drilling holes, moving heavy things and bales of hay. Even gave thought to obtaining another Redbelly and doing a diesel engine conversion. Easy enough to do – folks been doing that since the 50’s.

    My biggest fear is seed. Most folks around here don’t plant heirloom seeds. I do. Even the seeds sold in places like Tractor Supply and Southern States are not heirloom seeds… damn Monsanto and their GMO crap. That filth will wreak havoc on our food supply…

    Folks will always be able to dig up dirt, turn soil, and plant seed. They’ve been doing that for millennia. It’ll just take them awhile to figure out how to do it again without diesel powered tractors…

    By the way, pound for pound, I’d rather use an ox than a horse for plowing.

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #12466
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Melgus,

    Just wondering why I don’t see the Amish using oxen. Plenty of mules and draft horses in teams, but no oxen. Cows generally are not as smart as a horses so I wonder if they are difficult to train.

    #12492
    Profile photo of Brulen
    Brulen
    Survivalist
    member9

    The bureaucrats would rather see people starve than let them have chicken houses in their back yards. They have plans to ration food and fuel. And now they have a police state in place to do it. One can explore all the uses of older tech but nothing will be permitted. You won’t be able to drive down the road in your wood gas vehicle or grow anything for sale. Thats the real case for prepping.

    #12494
    Malgus
    Malgus
    Survivalist
    member8

    Just wondering why I don’t see the Amish using oxen. Plenty of mules and draft horses in teams, but no oxen. Cows generally are not as smart as a horses so I wonder if they are difficult to train. – 74

    I got no idea. Not to be snarky, but did you ever ask them? I suppose I could, since they’re all over the place around here… I’ll make it a point to stop in at the Amish market down the road tomorrow and ask those folks why they use horses instead of oxen. Might be some religious thing, I dunno…

    I had another guy I’m familiar with on a different site tell me that oxen are superior as far as plowing is concerned. They got a lower center of gravity and more brute strength and endurance. I know that cows are dumb as ****, but I got no experience with oxen. Not sure I would hook a favored horse up to a plow… horses tolerate folks, more or less, and I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t like that…

    The wicked flee when none pursueth..." - Proverbs 28:1

    #12495
    Profile photo of 74
    74
    Survivalist
    rnews

    Melgus,

    After thinking about it more I think it is because cows are food not intended for work.

    #12497
    Profile photo of Brulen
    Brulen
    Survivalist
    member9

    When you have an Ox. He’s your best friend. He never forgets, he’s sensitive and intelligent and read you like a book. He’ll do exactly what you want but never never insult an Ox. An Ox has to be trained and encouraged to do things. It takes time and effort. An Ox isn’t a tractor or Atv.  You have a personal relationship with an Ox.

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