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I think the differences amongst us here are the degree of what we consider a downturn vs a collapse. When others switch to using the word collapse, I am still calling those circumstances a downturn.

Ignoring the semantics of how bad it has to be to be considered a collapse, maybe we should be paying attention more to conditions in South Africa and how people are adjusting to what to some of us looks like that country slowly unraveling a little at a time. Yes it has become dangerous for farmers and others living in the countryside there, but what would the trigger points be for conditions to be even worse in their urban areas? Leopard has shared articles about the risk of grid collapse and areas running out of water. That’s pretty serious stuff but are the urban areas finding ways to adjust to even that should the outages grow longer and longer? She has also shared a lot about the high crime rates and level of violence and some of the steps people take there to protect themselves. She is already living in one of the potential futures others of us talk about maybe happening someday.